Which breeder source should I rely on?

Information on finding your puppy, the Assured Breeders Scheme, the Kennel Club and issues relating to breeding your Schnauzer are dealt with in this section.
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Lesbreits
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is a: B/S Mini Dog
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Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Lesbreits »

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum and would like some advice from mini schnauzer owners who've previously bought from KC-registered and/or assured breeders.

I am looking to buy a male puppy, black. I started my search by going through the list of assured breeders from the Kennel Club. I also contacted the mini schnauzer club for a list of their recommended breeders to see if reputable ones would appear on both lists.

To my surprise, the ones within 50 miles of where I live and recommended by the club are no where on the KC list! Why is this so?

Which list is the most dependable? And do any of these KC accolades really attest to the love and care in breeding - Accolade of Excellence, Studbook Achievement, Breed Club Membership, Breeder Experience?

I met a breeder who holds 3 of these KC accolades including excellence, and was really surprised to find her dogs in kennels. In all fairness, she runs a pet boarding business so her puppies may all be kennel rather than home-bred. However, one mini mum and pup (older than 8 weeks) shied away and appeared frightened when I first approached them, which in my novice puppy-seeker's mind, suggests the dogs may not have been conditioned/socialised enough. So what does it mean exactly when a breeder achieves an accolade of excellence??

In contrast, another one who's met only one accolade - breeder experience - was very loving towards his brood and puppies and provided lots of advice even though we were just visiting.

So I'm a little confused and am hoping I could get some help here...
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zeta1454
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Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by zeta1454 »

Welcome to the Forum :-)

I will try to answer some of your questions and hope this makes some things clearer although it is not necessarily going to make it simpler!

As regards lists of breeders from the breed clubs, my understanding would be that these are breeders who have submitted their names to be on the list rather than breeders who have been home checked and their breeding protocol independently assessed. That is not to say they are not good breeders but I am not sure that any assessment of them will have been undertaken for inclusion on the clubs' lists.

The Assured Breeder Scheme is a voluntary scheme which breeders can join for payment of an annual fee of £60, after having been visited by one of the Kennel Club assessors to ensure they are meeting the requirements of the Scheme. The assessment visits will be carried out at least every three years following the initial one to assess continued compliance. The requirements of the Scheme and how compliance is assessed can be read here:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/7 ... andard.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Inevitably, there will be those breeders who may find a way of evading certain aspects of the ABS but these should be a tiny minority and they will hopefully be found out through reports from puppy buyers or information from those concerned about their breeding practices.

The "Accolades" other than the "Accolade of Excellence" are not really a reflection of first class breeding practice as such but are simply a guide to those breeders who have experience in breeding ( they have not just had one litter with their pet for example) and identifies those whose dogs have excelled in the show Personally, I would not be using these as any guide to looking for a breeder for a family pet. There is more information here:
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breedi ... accolades/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Assured Breeder Scheme does provide a comprehensive template of what the Kennel Club regards as good practice in breeding dogs and does include mandatory eye tests, for example, where miniature schnauzers are concerned - they will not register puppies under the Assured Breeder Scheme if both parent dogs have not had a clear eye certificate from a BVA registered eye specialist vet in the 12 months prior to mating.

However, the ABS does not require all puppies to be bred in a home environment as long as the kennel facilities meet the demands of the Scheme as outlined in the document (linked to above)

Personally, I would always be looking for a home raised puppy and not one that has been reared in even a top class kennel environment and anyone looking for a family pet should be doing the same. There may be some breeds, especially if they are intended as working dogs who may be kennelled as adults, where a good kennel environment is not such a negative feature(?) but this would not apply to miniature schnauzers.

I think that the problem is (especially with a popular breed such as the miniature schnauzer) there are such a high number being bred in a wide range of environments from the very worst puppy farms to first class home breeders, that it is difficult for a puppy seeker to rely on a list from any source. You will know your own priorities in terms of what you are looking for from someone who is breeding a litter of puppies. For example: raising pups in the home environment; knowledge of the breed; ability to knowledgeably advise and support you both before and after you get your puppy; that they are using enrichment protocols and carrying out socialisation of the puppies; that relevant breed health tests have been carried out etc. Whether you choose to look at breeders from a breed club list or the Assured Breeder Scheme, you need to be reassured that all your requirements are being fulfilled just as the best breeders will have their priorities as regards who they will allow to have one of their puppies. If you are not being quizzed by the breeder or you find a breeder willing to just sell you a puppy no questions asked, these are self evidently not responsible breeders and should be avoided.

To sum up: Kennel Club registration has a few welfare restrictions but is no guarantee at all of good breeding practice; the Assured Breeder Scheme should provide more assurance and is the only current Scheme that does have independent and knowledgeable inspectors able to assess breeders' facilities and breeding practices; breed club lists will ensure that those on it are members of the Club which does have a code of ethics as regards breeding but there will not be any independent assessment of breeding practices. However, you will have to use your own research to narrow down your list of possible breeders who can reassure you that they raise their puppies and care for their dogs to the highest standards, whether they are members of the Assured Breeder Scheme or not. There are good breeders who choose not to join the Scheme so it is not automatically a negative point if a breeder is not on the Scheme but you do need to be absolutely sure that they are health testing their dogs etc. and independently check this via the Kennel Club website.

I hope this has clarified some of the points you raised but do also have a browse through the Puppy and Breeding Sections of the Forum where there are topics on how to find a good breeder and what to look out for and what to avoid :-)



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Lesbreits
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Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Lesbreits »

Hi Zeta1454,

Thank you so much for sharing your insights on this. It has cleared up a fair bit of confusion I've had about these lists. I've actually spoken to a few on the assured list and build a shortlist based on my initial contact with them - how questioning they are about our lifestyle and pet ownership experience, if they care to ask how much time we intend to spend with the puppy etc. I have also asked about how many litters their bitches have had, or are planning to have. I've had answers ranging from 2 - 6 times in their life. On this point, how many times should a bitch have litters throughout its life, ethically and legally? And what does it mean when a breeder advertises a "retiring litter"? Does that mean it's the last baby run for the mum? Will puppies from a retiring mum who's had more than 3 prior litters be less healthy than one who's having her first?

And back on the assured breeder scheme, why would a good breeder with proper whelping facilities at home not want to join this scheme if they can adhere to the KC's guidelines on breeding, vaccination, eye tests etc? Surely, the £60 fee should not put a good breeder off....

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts!
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Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Codypops »

I am an occasional but knowledgeable breeder of Standards and, whilst I can and do easily conform to the requirements of the Assured Breeder Scheme, it is very unlikely that I would join it.
Partly it is the money.... £80 first year and £60 per year thereafter is quite a lot of one is only breeding a single litter every two - three years. For those who have more breeding dogs, or who breed commercially it makes more sense to be in the scheme - and you might bear that in mind - these are less likely to be home bred dogs, bred for the love of the breed with no overriding financial incentive.
I can call on references for practically any dog I have ever bred if anyone is concerned about quality, temperament or socialization but for most people they just need to come here to see how my dogs live and how the puppies are treated.
Of course this is easier for me because my dogs are Standards. Much more complicated for Minis where puppy farming and health problems are more common.

Most importantly...go with your gut feeling....when a breeder is right it is obvious. Any doubts..walk away. Good Luck.
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zeta1454
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Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by zeta1454 »

Regarding the question of numbers of litters a bitch should bear in a lifetime, the Kennel Club rules are that 4 litters should be a maximum and they will not register puppies if four litters have already been registered to a bitch. They also have a minimum age of a year and a maximum of eight years for a bitch to be whelping a litter. Personally I would be reluctant to have more than two litters with a bitch in most circumstances as good mothers give so much to their puppies that I feel it can prove a drain on their own health to breed too many times but this is a personal decision.

A "retiring litter" is not a phrase I have come across before but, as you say, may be the last litter a breeder intends to have from that bitch. Of itself, the fact that the bitch is not having any more litters may not mean she has had a lot previously unless this is stated. Although I prefer not to have more than two (or only one) litter from a bitch does not mean that they could not successfully rear a healthy third or even fourth litter. Much will depend on the health of the bitch, if she has been allowed a reasonable break between litters of at least a year ( not breeding on successive seasons) and if the support and care she and the puppy receive from mating to rearing is exemplary - nutritionally, emotionally and in terms of hygiene and practical care - then there may be no reason to believe that the puppies will not be as healthy as those she bore in previous litters.

As regards the Assured Breeder Scheme, there may be a number of personal views, as the post above outlines. People can only speak from their own perspective. Personally, I view the ABS in a similar way to the professional organisation I joined when I qualified as an aromatherapist. There is no financial benefit to membership but it is a formal way of committing to a written set of standards, it provides a guide to best practice to be met by the practitioner and a guide to what to look for / expect from anyone looking for a service from that individual. We used to breed miniature schnauzers (a single litter a year) but now intend in future to breed affenpinschers only- the average litter size for affens is 2 puppies and last year we kept both pups ourselves. As our breeding is likely to be once a year maximum we are never going to be financially benefiting from this "hobby" but choose to belong to the ABS because we believe in its aims and feel that currently it is the only way those who do not already know excellent breeders, can start their search for their new puppy with some confidence and with a template guide of what to be looking for. The Kennel Club also provides access to breeder seminars (now online) which ABS members are reminded of by email and regular updates on the latest news regarding health surveys and initiatives in different breeds. A number of the best breeders will be paying out for attendance at other breed / breeding seminars as part of their commitment to their hobby /passion.

The requirements of the Scheme are high where breeding is concerned as you can see if you read the paragraphs on "breeding" in the link given in my first post. A large amount of paperwork and record keeping is required ( which may be a reason in addition or instead of finance why some breeders are reluctant to join the Scheme). This includes the requirement to:

"Participate in any canine health survey or reasonable health initiative in their breed(s). Collection of health data in all breeds of dog is an urgent priority and the expectation is that any Assured Breeder will assist in this process.

Keep, for a minimum of 10 years, a record of all dogs, matings, and puppies up until the point of transfer. Records must include, as a minimum, all dogs’ and puppies’:

Registration details including breed or description of type, registration number, name, sex, date of birth, date of ownership and evidence of parentage
 Date of transfer (change of ownership)
 Mating details (dates matings performed)
 Details of puppies produced
 Health screening test results
 Permanent identification details
 Date (and cause) of death (if known)
 Date of sale of puppies and contact details of buyers
 Any veterinary treatment
 Details of puppies at birth e.g. number, any dead and cause of death if known,
any abnormalities noted, e.g. date of birth, sex, colour and any other
identifying marks
 A record of any complaints received
 A record of any exceptional events or breeding decisions that have the
potential to result in a failure to meet the scheme standard.

Make health of breeding stock and puppies produced a particular priority. Assured Breeders must take all reasonable steps to ensure that breeding stock is of good physical and genetic health, of acceptable temperament and fit for function (e.g. be able to see, breathe normally, be physically fit, and able to exercise freely).

Individual dogs with proven health related issues caused by over-exaggeration of physical features must not be used in a breeding programme, if there is overwhelming evidence that it would be inadvisable in the sense that it is likely to produce health or welfare problems in the offspring, and/or it is inadvisable in the context of a relevant breeding strategy. If any doubt exists, or if an animal has encountered previous problems, either with whelping or with the puppies produced, then suitable veterinary or genetic advice must be sought and appropriate steps taken."

As well as providing comprehensive puppy information packs and a lifetime commitment to take back or assist with rehoming any puppy they sell for the lifetime of the dog. These are extensive commitments and breeding to the highest standards does take time and a practical and emotional commitment which few if any commercial breeders could achieve.
75% of puppies registered at the Kennel Club are from breeders breeding 2 litters or fewer a year (according to their own statistics) and with the ABS this is likely to be more so.

Basically it is an individual decision whether or not to join and each breeder will have their own views on this :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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Lesbreits
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 10 Jul 2017, 21:44
First Name: Wendy
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 20 May 2018
Location: London

Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Lesbreits »

:) Zeta1454,
Can't thank you enough for the time taken to explain everything so succinctly. If you know of any excellent mini schnauzer breeder within 80 miles of London, would you please PM me? I'm calling breeders off the KC list, first by picking out those that are under the ABS, but if you know of one personally, that would be extremely helpful!
Ideal76
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First Name: Delia
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Feb 2018

Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Ideal76 »

Lesbreits wrote::) Zeta1454,
Can't thank you enough for the time taken to explain everything so succinctly. If you know of any excellent mini schnauzer breeder within 80 miles of London, would you please PM me? I'm calling breeders off the KC list, first by picking out those that are under the ABS, but if you know of one personally, that would be extremely helpful!
Following this thread / post with interest. We have been looking for a mini puppy dog for quite a while now . Very hard knowing good breeders from bad . But recommendations alway very helpful !! Looking forward to following your journey . X


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Lesbreits
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 10 Jul 2017, 21:44
First Name: Wendy
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 20 May 2018
Location: London

Re: Which breeder source should I rely on?

Post by Lesbreits »

Ideal76 wrote:
Lesbreits wrote::) Zeta1454,
Can't thank you enough for the time taken to explain everything so succinctly. If you know of any excellent mini schnauzer breeder within 80 miles of London, would you please PM me? I'm calling breeders off the KC list, first by picking out those that are under the ABS, but if you know of one personally, that would be extremely helpful!
Following this thread / post with interest. We have been looking for a mini puppy dog for quite a while now . Very hard knowing good breeders from bad . But recommendations alway very helpful !! Looking forward to following your journey . X


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I spent a few months researching, speaking and corresponding with breeders before shortlisting a final few that I have arranged to meet in person. You'll find good breeders to have long waiting lists and current litters already spoken for, as they have only very limited litters (eg 2) per year. So you should be prepared to wait, sometimes for many months. It is worth the wait IMO as it is far more important to find a good breeder you could have a dog-life long relationship with, than a puppy that meets all the standard requirements of registration, tests and vaccinations.

I first started by going through the Kennel Club's Assured Breeders' List. There is without doubt, a lot of very good breeders out there who don't belong to the scheme for a variety of reasons, but unless you have heard of them, met them at shows or events, or have been personally recommended to them by a good ABS breeder, it will be difficult to establish their real intent for having puppies. This is however, just my personal opinion stemming from my search.

I also contacted the breed club for a list of their recommended breeders, and cross-check that list against the KC's and also Champdogs. I noticed that a number of very reputable breeders to have their names and their breed affixes mentioned either as judges or winners in many dog shows over many years. They may also own their studs, and have other breeders breeding from their lines. They will also have their own websites with loads of info and doggie-love to share.

Be prepared to travel the distance in your search, and speak/write and ask as many questions as you may have. You'll find really good breeders to be patient and personable in addressing your concerns either over email or phone, and will also insist on meeting you in person to determine if you're fit to be a future owner of one of their pups. To me, the more the breeder scrutinises and questions, the better the breeder is, and the higher your chances of meeting "the right one".

i wish you best of luck in your search :) ! This is an excellent forum, and you'll find lots of resources and help from genuine dog lovers.
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