Diabetic diet?

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Diabetic diet?

Post by angiejt »

My 9 year old mini schnauzer Yossi has just been diagnosed with diabetes about a fortnight ago. I am having problems getting him to eat the food the vet has prescribed (Hills w/d) and he can't have his insulin if he doesn't eat. It's becoming a bit of a nightmare as his glucose levels are all over place, and we need to get him stabilised. I have had to resort to feeding him chicken or fish just to get him to eat so that he can have his insulin. It doesn't help that he isn't used to eating so early in the morning, but he needs his food 12 hours apart with food for his insulin. He already has a heart problem which he was diagnosed with about 3 or 4 years ago and he needs those meds on an empty stomach an hour before food. He is also on apoquel for allergies. I am sure we'll get into the new routine in time but I really need to get his food sorted. He is used to eating tesco own dog pate which we put him on to hide some of his tablets in but prior to that he ate royal canin dry food. He has always been a faddy eater and very subborn. If he doesn't like it, no matter how hungry he is he simply won't eat it. I am so stressed cos I'm struggling to get him on a regular food. Does anyone have any advice on what a diabetic dog can or should be eating? I asked the vet about natural foods and they said there wasn't anything, but he just doesn't like the prescribed food for some reason. Thank you so much for any advice. I'm at my wits end. Xx
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Dinkum »

Sorry to hear that your boy has been poorly.
angiejt wrote:I asked the vet about natural foods and they said there wasn't anything
Your vet is wrong. You should seriously consider a raw diet for your boy. It is all natural, no additives and easy for any dog to digest. I would look at nutriment first. Give them a call and they will give you advice on what is best.

Our two love their nutriment and our vet always comments on how healthy they look and how clean their teeth are.

There are lots of posts on here concerning raw food and I would seriously consider it as the best, natural alternative to any of the bulk manufactured foods.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Robin black mini »

My last st poodle girl had to take several meds daily..life or death ...so we used to pop the pills in hills a/ d ( like pate but made for convalescent dogs ) and literally pop each mouthful into her throat...she was a cooperative dog and even used to open her mouth...once the pills were down she was left to decide if she wanted to eat her regular food..
If the w/ d diet is soft enough ,I'd make small balls of the food with a pill in each...
Once you get the dog stabilized you can reconsider a diet that suits you both,but in the meantime,as you say the priority is to stabilise your dog and get those meds Into him.
With a small dog I would sit with the dog between my legs and have him facing forward..this way you can open his mouth with your left hand and feed the balled food with your right hand...this should take under a minute or two to get these down once you've perfected the technique and should not be stressful for your dog.
All the best!
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by zeta1454 »

Welcome to the Forum and so so sorry to hear about Yossi's health issues.

I agree with Dean that a raw food diet may well help him and your vet is not speaking from any knowledge of nutrition in recommending a highly processed grain based food over feeding minimally processed whole foods. I have never heard of people with diabetes being prescribed highly processed tinned food and I think the consensus among all medical professionals for humans is that the less processed and more natural a diet the better to maintain or recover good health. Unfortunately too many vets rely on the products supplied by the pet food manufacturer who have a financially rewarding link with their surgery and do not offer objective and nutritionally sound advice.

If you do want to consider trying a raw food diet check out the following links and, as Dean suggested, contact one of the companies who produce raw meals for dogs and ask for advice on the best choice for Yossi's conditions:

https://www.naturalinstinct.com/special ... w-dog-food" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nutriment.co/dog-range/low-p ... nutriment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As with people, too many dogs are now having far too much highly processed food which lacks many of the natural enzymes and nutrition that are found in foods which have been minimally processed. Kibble (dry extruded dog food) is produced often from low quality food sources and cooked at exceptionally high temperatures which destroyis many vitamins and other nutrients that have to be artificially added later. In many of the established brands, including those sold in vet surgeries, the calories come from wheat or corn with very little or no quality fresh meat at all. Excess carbohydrates lead to weight issues and contribute to health problems such as diabetes.

Compare this Hills w/d ingredients with one of the meals linked to above:
"Water, Pork Liver, Whole Grain Corn, Chicken, Cracked Pearled Barley, Powdered Cellulose, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, Egg Product, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid), Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Potassium Citrate, Taurine, L-Tryptophan, minerals (Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate), L-Carnitine, Beta-Carotene."

And the breed specific Royal Canin. for miniature schnauzers:

"Rice, dehydrated poultry protein, maize, vegetable protein isolate*, maize gluten, animal fats, minerals, hydrolysed animal proteins, chicory pulp, fish oil, vegetable fibres, psyllium husks and seeds, fructo-oligo-saccharides, soya oil, borage oil, green tea and grape extracts (source of polyphenols), hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), marigold extract (source of lutein), hydrolysed cartilage (source of chondroitin). *L.I.P.: protein selected for its very high assimilation.

The detrimental impact of highly processed food on dogs' health is huge and more and more people and open minded vets are coming to realise this. Even if you don't want to feed raw, a home prepared diet of fresh cooked meat would be better than kibble. This is from a recent article by a Canadian vet:

"The weight of the evidence supports what most consumers would consider obvious – the more unadulterated whole foods you eat, the healthier you are. It’s not the ‘raw’ that’s important. It’s whether a food is processed. Homemade diets that aren’t loaded with carbs would be expected to create the same benefits in a dog or cat as a raw diet, and those benefits turn out to be just ‘avoidance of problems’ that processed diets create.

I’m embarrassed to say that I was once a veterinarian who toed the line and spouted the usual biased rhetoric currently rampant in our profession against raw foods, all the while thinking that I was a good little scientist. It took the clinical experiences of my wife, colleague, and EHVC co-owner Kären Marsden, to show me the light.

Kären had patients that were sick for years with inflammatory bowel disease become normal within a few days of a switch to raw. These animals did not lack for the best efforts of our city veterinarians, who had gone to the lengths of even putting the animals on chemotherapy to try to shut down their exuberant inflammatory responses.


The most recent of these miracle cures was just a few weeks ago, which several city veterinarians bore witness to. It turns out that high insulin levels are a big driver of both acute and chronic inflammation as well as obesity, and raw diets excel at keeping insulin levels low by being digested much more slowly. THAT’S why these diets are popular. Know anyone with an overweight or inflamed cat or dog? Search a medical database for articles on the link between inflammation and insulin, and you’ll find tens of thousands."

The whole article can be read here:
https://holisticvetuk.wordpress.com/201 ... eally-say/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other issue that comes to mind with your mention of the medication that Yossi has been prescribed is to what extent his health problems may be related to the drugs he takes. I hope that your vet did go through with you the possible side effects of everything he takes and provided you with the data sheets or a printed list detailing the information about the drugs. If not, the following is a link to the data sheet for Apoquel:
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-45 ... _printview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As you can see there are a number of things with this drug that you need to be aware of including the fact that it suppresses the immune system which can lead to a variety of issues:

Oclacitinib modulates the immune system and may increase susceptibility to infection and exacerbate neoplastic conditions. Dogs receiving APOQUEL tablets should therefore be monitored periodically with complete blood counts and serum biochemistry when on long-term treatment.

Side effects include:
Diarrhoea
Vomiting
Anorexia
New cutaneous or subcutaneous lumps
Lethargy
Polydipsia

After day 16, abnormal clinical signs, in addition to those clinical signs listed above and occurring in greater than 1% of the dogs receiving oclacitinib included pyoderma, non-specified dermal lumps, otitis, histiocytoma, cystitis, yeast skin infections, pododermatitis, lipoma, lymphadenopathy, nausea, increased appetite and aggression. In a laboratory study, the development of papillomas was noted in a number of dogs."

The problem with many pharmaceutical drugs is that they can have effects which lead to other health problems when, in many cases, if initially there had been a change to a more natural diet, a nutritional supplement or some other less aggressive therapy the desired results may have been achieved just as well. It does worry me that pharmaceutical products are now recommended as the only first line treatment in the UK and vets are being pressured into prescribing heavy duty drugs in situations where a far gentler approach may have a better long term prognosis for the dog being treated.

Apologies for the long post but I do hope that you can find some useful guidance on the Forum or via the links and that you will feel confident to try a more natural approach to feeding Yossi. If you have a holistic vet anywhere near where you live, I would encourage you to take Yossi there for a consultation as you should get a much broader approach to health care from a vet who is less restricted to a pharmaceutical/single pet food brand ethos.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Robin black mini »

I posted about apoquel in 2016.. And was both slated and unsupported in my views...it is a very powerful med with many serious side effects,,also many have put the dog on apoquel ,then find it is unavailable at the chemists and this leads to critical situations.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21627&p=288649&hil ... el#p288649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also agree a change of diet is needed for this dog,but when it won't eat,sometimes force feeding( balling food into throat with meds ) is needed to get the dog stabilized..
I also do not feed hill or vet prescription food long term and would support a natural diet if the dog will accept it.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by zeta1454 »

Robin black mini wrote:I posted about apoquel in 2016.. And was both slated and unsupported in my views...it is a very powerful med with many serious side effects,,also many have put the dog on apoquel ,then find it is unavailable at the chemists and this leads to critical situations.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21627&p=288649&hil ... el#p288649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also agree a change of diet is needed for this dog,but when it won't eat,sometimes force feeding( balling food into throat with meds ) is needed to get the dog stabilized..
I also do not feed hill or vet prescription food long term and would support a natural diet if the dog will accept it.
Thank you for the extra links re Apoquel :)

I agree that if it is impossible to get a dog to eat at all and medication needs to be given, a soft food to hide / disguise the medication may be needed short term. I am just sceptical that the "prescription" diet foods sold by vets are of any nutritional benefit. If the vet can explain the need for the ingredients in the tinned food as to how they benefit a dog with diabetes that might help the OP to design a homemade diet for Yossi if she wants to find something more palatable to him.

For professional advice, I would still recommend finding a holistic vet that can properly assess Yossi and offer a broader range of acceptable foods for his condition. There are a couple of links here to Diabetes in Dogs including some advice regarding food.

https://www.thespruce.com/what-should-i ... og-3384642" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issue ... 521-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by maxcat »

Dear Angie, I am so sorry to hear about Yossi's rotten bad luck. My miniature, Bosun, was diagnosed at age 7. It took nearly a year to get him stabilised (glucose curves every month, etc....) Although he went completely blind within that first year (has your vet warned you of this), he lead a full and happy life for another 5 years.

All this talk of nutrition and what's good or bad for your dog is irrelevant until you get can get Yossi stable. Just feed him with whatever he will eat so that you can get that Insulin into him. High blood sugar does untold damage if not corrected. What's his favourite food (chicken?), try feeding him off one of your dinner plates (this worked when I looked after a friends dog that wouldn't eat). OK Yossi may develop a few bad habits for a while, but at least he'll still be here.

Good luck

Sue x
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Robin black mini »

maxcat wrote:All this talk of nutrition and what's good or bad for your dog is irrelevant until you get can get Yossi stable. Just feed him with whatever he will eat so that you can get that Insulin into him.
Sue,it's all relevant... If you read the posts carefully ,you will see several diet suggestions but the train of thought is get the dog stabilised with the meds ,with whatever food you can get into the dogthen look at a healthier option for the long term...I think we are all in agreement here. :)
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Morgana99 »

So sorry to hear about Yossi. How are you getting on now?

One of my dogs (Duke) has Diabetes. He and his brother developed the condition aged about 6, within 6 months of each other and before that I also had an elderly rescue dog who had this, along with other conditions! Duke and Alfie unfortunately both had double cataracts, which is also common with the condition, but this was rectified with surgery and they regained their sight, which was like a miracle. This isn't the case for all, but you and your vet will need to keep watch on Yossi's eye health too.

In the early stages after diagnosis, it is often very hard to get your dog stabilised and during the first 6 months, it is very likely you will struggle with lots of tests and getting used to the whole idea of the necessary regime. Please don't feel alone, but also don't think there can't be a light at the end of the tunnel and your dog will hopefully reach the point where you have your routine sorted and there will only be the more infrequent blips to deal with :ymhug: It is likely your vet will initially have prescribed a relatively low dose of insulin that will need to be increased by small tweaks every week or so until you get to the level right for your dog. This can also be difficult as when dogs develop Diabetes, they may still be producing some insulin themselves and of course this can change over time.

The key is consistency: as far as possible, keep your injection and feeding times the same, as well as the amount of exercise you give. As you have found, food needs to be given in two identical meals, as close to 12 hours apart as possible.

There are a lot of schools of thought on whether or not a prescription diet is required for Diabetes. My personal view is this is not the case. Prior to the diagnosis, my dogs were fed a reasonable quality kibble and wet food (grain free), but after a lot of research and soul searching, not to mention 'discussions' with my vet, I switched both dogs to a complete raw food (Natures Menu). After consulting the dietician at Natures Menu, I chose the Country Hunter Nugget range and have used the Venison and Turkey complete meals ever since - now all my four rescue dogs are on this and they love it. It is very easy to hide pills in it, if necessary, too. That said, I buy thin sliced chicken from the supermarket, cut it into squares and administer Duke's pills that way - it isn't ideal to mix raw and cooked, but the amounts are negligible. Duke also has to have pills on an empty stomach (for seizures!) and I want to make 100% sure they go down with no risk of the others getting them. Of course, if Yossi has allergies, some of these may be food related so you would need to choose accordingly.

Prior to switching, I conducted a taste test on various products with my dogs and if Yossi is a faddy eater, I would definitely recommend doing this before buying anything in quantity or trying to make a change. I also contacted the main brand companies to see if they had any advice on feeding a Diabetic dog and all were helpful & knowledgeable.

My reasons for switching to raw complete was to achieve a relatively low fat (Duke also had an acute attack of Pancreatitis), grain free option that would reduce stress on an already stressed Pancreas. You may also find Yossi loses weight initially until he is stabilised. With a raw diet, a much higher percentage of the food is digested. Duke has regained & maintained his pre-Diabetes body weight and has beautifully defined muscle tone - the vet has come round completely because she's seen the results over the past 18 months. If your vet is not a fan of raw feeding, they may not be very supportive, but for me it was 150% worth persevering.

If you find the idea of raw off-putting (although the complete diets are not gruesome!), I would recommend Gentle, a cold compressed food, with a very helpful support team.

I would also review the use of Apoquel in light of Yossi's Diabetes. It's always important to look at the dog holistically and review as things change, so I would be worried about the possible impact of that on his immune system and possible impact on his appetite. That said, steroids are not good for Diabetic dogs either, so if the allergies are really bad, you may have no choice, but it would be worth trying alternatives if there are any that could work.

Sorry this is a bit long, but having gone through this kind of thing myself & seen the benefits switching to raw can bring, I get a bit passionate about it :)

Good luck with Yossi and please don't hesitate to post if you have any questions at all xx
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Fergus »

The Country Hunter Nugget range Venison and Turkey complete meals, seem to be quite high in carbs.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by angiejt »

Thank you so much for all your replies. They are really appreciated and it means such a lot to know I'm not alone. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back in touch but I have been really poorly myself and also looking after my mum who had a bad fall. So I've just had my hands really full recently still trying to get Yossi stabilised as well.

I was very interested to read about the apoquel as I have had my own concerns. It was a relatively new drug when he was first put on it and it seemed to have instantaneous results. However he has not really been monitored regarding this. I did some research of my own when they thought he had Cushings disease a few years ago and I wondered if the apoquel could have been contributing to his symptoms (as his cortisol levels did come back a little high, but tests were always inconclusive. Further tests indicated he was unlikely to have it). He has been tested a few times since but always the same results, and the vets don't seem concerned.

At the moment I am still trying to get him stabilised. With his faddy eating habits eventually his glucose levels went sky high. He was really poorly and he had to go in and be put on a drip to rehyrdrate him. This was in the very early stages. Since then, I decided I just needed a food he would willingly eat and after reading all your comments about raw food, I decided it had to be worth a try. I did some more research and mentioned it my vet who was not against it. She said it was more important that he ate, not what he ate and was fine with it. To be honest, I wish I had put him on a raw diet years ago now. I decided to try him on nature's menu country hunter superfood nuggets and he just loves all the flavours. For the first time ever, he actually gets me up wanting food in a morning and is excited about his meals. We are slowly getting into a good routine. My only concern is if they are all really suitable for a diabetic dog, but his favourites seem to be the venison and the duck which he licks the plate clean.

The vets started him off on an insulin dose of 7 when he was first diagnosed, and upped it to 8 when his glucose curve showed they were high. However this was just before I switched him to raw (which I told them I was going to) and when he went for his first glucose curve after switching his diet, his levels went worryingly low (3.2) so they reduced his dosage a little. I thought it might be due to the raw diet as I read diabetic dogs often need a lower dose. Last week when he was there, they were high again but the vets think this is because he has a nasty nose infection at the moment (they have given him antibiotics) and have kept him on the same dose. He is back again next week, and I will keep you updated. Thank you again for all your kind encouragement. It really does mean lot.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Fergus »

Angie do you know if it equivelent to type 1 or type 2? I asume it will be type 2.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by angiejt »

Fergus wrote:Angie do you know if it equivelent to type 1 or type 2? I asume it will be type 2.
Hi there. Thank you for your reply. I was just told he was diabetic and needed inulin injections so I am assuming he is type 1. I am not sure, but the research I have done suggest that dogs are nearly always type 1.
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Schnauzer Sam »

Angie, I have no experience of diabetes in a dog but consider myself to have a high level of knowledge/experience in diabetes in children having a 16 yo daughter with type 1.

What I don't know is can dogs be considered healthy without carbs? If the answer to this is yes then a meat only diet will be easiest for you to manage.

The insulin is only needed to counteract carbohydrates that are in the diet so in theory a meat only diet (purely protein and fat) will not require any insulin. In practise a background level of insulin is always necessary but what this means is that Yossi should be more stable on the lowest possible level of carbohydrates as you won't have the carb spike immediately after meals and will only have to attend to the background insulin levels.

By way of illustration, my daughter uses 2 insulins. One looks after the background needs and lasts 24 hours and we inject at bedtime; the other is metabolised after 90 minutes or so and is used to counteract the carbohydrates that are in her food and is given prior to eating or immediately after her meal.

Can your vet supply you with a canine insulin that is long lasting only or do they have to give you a fast acting one mixed in?
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Re: Diabetic diet?

Post by Fergus »

Hi Angie type 1 in a nine year old would seem unusual in human terms. A 9 year old dog is well ito adulthood.
As one of very few cured diabetics, I would suggest a low carb diet.
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