Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

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zeta1454
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Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

Post by zeta1454 »

The topic of whether mixed/cross breeds are healthier than pedigree dogs was raised the other day on a different thread and, without a doubt, this is likely to be a subject of debate for years to come, with people’s prejudice / bias on either side affecting the interpretation of any data available. The problem is that the studies which have been carried out on this issue have used different parameters to look at the subject. Some use statistics taken from numbers of dogs presenting with health issues at veterinary surgeries; some from insurance policy claims and, recently, one very interesting study analysing DNA from a range of dogs to isolate genes that can contribute to particular conditions in pedigree dogs and mixed / crossbreed dogs. There is a link to this study here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -purebreds

My feeling is that generalisations of "Pedigree" and "Crossbreed" are unhelpful and individual variations between pedigree breeds as regards health as well as lifestyle / environmental factors all need to be looked at in any study of health whether for humans or animals. Certainly, close in-breeding of particular lines of pedigree dogs will increase the likelihood of genetic / hereditary diseases cropping up in a breed but, as long as there is a wide enough gene pool worldwide which is being intelligently and responsibly used by breeders and those breeders are vigilant to eliminate any lines carrying the known hereditary problems / understand how to choose breeding dogs to avoid passing on genetic defects, good health in pedigree dogs can be maintained or enhanced. This is why it is vital that anyone breeding even a single litter of puppies must do all they can to ensure that the relevant health testing has been carried out on parent dogs before mating and on puppies before sale. The health of the parent dogs whether pure bred or mixed breed will affect their offspring and random mixed matings of different breeds (without health screening or understanding/ knowledge of the health of the ancestor dogs) may result in just as many health issues as planned pedigree breeding.

Of course, the other issues that can skew statistics on either side are what other factors come into play with pure breed / mixed breed dogs where health is concerned such as neutering (especially neutering at an early age); regular use of prophylactic pharmaceutical products; the quality of nutrition and other general lifestyle factors. One of the studies highlighted obesity as a greater health problem in pure breed dogs compared to cross breeds and this, as with humans, must surely be regarded as due to poor diet and lack of appropriate exercise as much as any genetic factors. It could be speculated that higher income families may be more likely to neuter their dogs at a younger age; to have insurance for their dog; may be more likely to feed the vet recommended kibble (high in carbohydrates?) and, if working full time, more likely to use day care facilities where they may be required to give their dog regular pesticide treatments and vaccines which can have a negative impact on health. They may also be more inclined if encouraged by their vet to pursue speculative screening / scanning for minor or unidentifiable health issues in their dog which will be reflected in higher insurance claims for their chosen breed.

The other major factors which have artificially affected pure breed dogs in recent years include (as highlighted by Al on a different thread) the horrifying trend in some breeds for the facial appearance and physical structure of the dog to be deliberately bred for exaggeration leading to a range of totally preventable health issues; and, of course, the backyard / irresponsible breeding and industrial scale puppy farming of popular pedigree breeds by disreputable individuals whose disregard for the welfare of the dogs they use/abuse means that no health testing is carried out on breeding dogs, no effort is made to choose fit, healthy parent dogs and no thought given to nutrition, sanitation, or enrichment of the lives of the puppies they raise. All of which results in a huge number of sick, emotionally and mentally damaged dogs being sold as “pedigree” which will inevitably contribute to the statistics of pedigree dogs being less healthy. It will be interesting over time, if the trend for “designer” cross / mixed breed dogs continues, whether the statistics may reveal a greater number of the latter showing up health issues than would have been the case in the past. These factors are not inherently to do with whether or not a dog is a pedigree dog and all to do with the way they have been abused by design or neglect.

There are a couple of other links here to past studies but I must admit that I find the most recent one linked to above the most interesting:

http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org ... s-the-data

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/g ... ed-breeds/
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Robin black mini
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Re: Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

Post by Robin black mini »

What a can of worms this topic is...I have both rescued and bought from breeders....my preference is to go to a reputable breeder who shows their dogs ( proof they are to standard) and health tests their dogs ( hopefully to exclude the inheritance of genetic disease associated with the breed of choice).
If you had two cars,one without mot,untested..or a full history( pedigree ,tested)...which do you think would give you more confidence?
I wish vets could be obligated to be part of a world wide survey,reporting longevity , illness and mortality in specifically named breeds...then numbers would be significant to apply statistics to these issues...

I have been writing to the Swedish kennel club for two years now,asking they include DM...degenerative myelopathy( terminal,no cure illness) to their recommended health testsfor ST poodles.

I care so much about genetic testing that when a litter brother (imported to uk as a stud dog)of my silver ST poodle tested positive as a carrier for DM I immediately tested my ST poodle for this illness... Result?my dog is also a carrier for DM
For me ,this is not an issue ,as I will never breed from my boy,but the stud dog ,U.K.,has already fathered several litters..
The father of my dog is top sire in Sweden....world ch ,and ch titled in ten countries..
He has sired over 115 puppies(poodle health database) and mother has had three litters..

So my quest began....I wrote to the Swedish breed club two years ago...suggesting they include DM testing in their recommended health tests for ST poodles..letters ignored..
I wrote to the breeder....not in her lines ,she said,despite the testing results on the last litter.......two carriers for DM and they were the only pups tested..where does she think it came from?????

I wrote to the son of the breeder, after breeder died...ignored..

Dogs were passed on to another Swedish breeder...I wrote to her as she was breeding a line bred litter ( grandad was behind the future sire...g dad was father of their breeding bitch and my boy )...so here you have line bred sire and sister to my boy (who is carrying DM...).....genetic time bomb or what....?

And the reply from this breeder is ...if Swedish kennel club won't say to test for DM they won't test...
They have since bred a second litter with same lines...most of these pups will be sold as breeding prospects to other breeders...all show,all health test but NOOne tests for DM as the Swedish kennel club doesn't consider it a genetic disease of ST poodles...

And so I wrote yet again to Swedish kennel club...I got a reply from a Young woman,Ph.D. Holder ,who is their genetic spokesperson.."DM is not in ST poodles and won't be recommended as a test prior to breeding...
The breeder now has produced two litters from these line bred dogs..."

So until breed clubs are on the page,and breeders are not kennel blind...I will only buy from health tested parents and continue in my belief this is the way ahead...
Summary..Carrier dogs are not per se to be excluded from important pedigrees,BUT should only be bred to heterozygous CLEAR dogs...otherwise you do get bottlenecks of disease by using popular sires ....

Sorry for the ramble,but I've been battling this one fo two years now..it's very important that breeders are open and honest about their lines...

https://pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/codeofsilence/

Having said all this,my now six year old boy has been a very healthy dog,but had I bred from him and not tested for this disease I would have been gutted if I'd produced DM affected pups...there is no cure for this illness that completely renders a dog immobile form the hips down....the cost of testing...? 50 pounds ,a cheek swab sent to animal genetics uk...go figure.
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Re: Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

Post by Al T »

As stated, can of worms indeed eh..... leads off on all directions.....

I have to admit to being educated here on the intricacies of breeding; but; being devils advocate.....please bear with me & my limited knowledge of this subject as a whole....

Of a few points touched on...diet...I'm in the sales & marketing world &, for personal interest only, I look at how much it must cost to advertise on the TV..£3000.00 to £30,000 dependant on time of day...what I'm getting at is the pet food giants can afford to advertise this way regularly; why? Because it's positively effective to their overall profit.

The dogs best interests are not of priority with these companies, purely & simply profit is. Marketing techniques are blatant; brand names...James Well-beloved / Royal Canine / Field & Trial / Truline. These companies have vast Sales & Marketing budgets. What's the health implication to the animal? Negative I reckon; has to be. So, as I say, being devils advocate, you as responsible breeders may do all you can to ensure a healthy animal is bred but it's quite likely it could well become seriously ill through additives used in such foods or insufficient nutrition.

Do you as responsible breeders then not only assure yourselves that your pups are going to a good home but insist they follow a specific diet?

Profit related again...The subject of Vets...They too are not in business because they love animals; they are in business because they love extracting large amounts of cash from those of us who love our pets dearly & capitalise on this...BLATANTLY

Flea treatment! I'm sure we've bought £50.00 flea collars before from the vets FIFTY POUNDS!...Frontline...One of ours had a mild siezure issue shortly after we'd administered it. Vaccinations; not needed anywhere near as often as they advise but if we dont go by their rules the insurance may be void or boarding kennels may not accept them. What are we letting these organisations do to our pets? We're helpless against them!

Again, devils advocate, you as responsible breeders may do all you can to ensure a healthy animal is bred but again, it's quite likely it could well become seriously ill through over injected or over administered chemicals & 'medicines'.

As responsible breeders you too are forced to accept veterinary practices which although not positively proven we all know are quite likely detrimental to the pets health. You are powerless to prevent this.

There's so many tangents to go off on...what about animals we eat! Do we only eat animals that have been tested for this, that & the other so they have a good, healthy, albeit dramatically short life. I think not; we buy what's suitable to our budgets in the supermarket.

Don't get me wrong; of course it's commendable to do as much as possible to ensure healthy animals but where do you stop? Cloning?

With respect & best regards

Al.
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Al.

"If a man speaks in the forest & there is no woman to hear him.....is he still wrong"..?? !!
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Robin black mini
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Re: Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

Post by Robin black mini »

AL..you raise many good points..I am not a breeder but have been fortunate to buy from worldwide ,reputable kennels..for me the issues I am looking for are that all the genetic testing for the breed and other tests eg hips,eye testing etc that can be done ,if relevant to the breed ,should be done...if the breeder does all the testing that they can for their breed and gives me good support through the lifetime of the dog,then I'm happy.
The nutrition ,amount of excercise,vaccination choices ,parasite treatment choices etc are all down to me,and if issues arise due to errors here,then I believe there is no recourse on the breeder.
Eg I decide on vaccinations and would thus use a pet sitter if a boarding kennels tried to force me to overvaccinate.
I have only had one really unhealthy dog in all my pedigree animals.She was from a great line of German dogs,both ch parents ,hips ,eyes ,elbows ,sebaceous adenitis free etc..but her immune system was weak.Not something you can test a pup for,so I took it on the chin and she cost me a fortune to keep on top of health issues..so not all pedigree dogs are healthy.
Re cross breeds.. I see huge overbreeding here,kennels are full of rescue dogs,caused by casual breeding ..the sad tales of vet costs after the dogs are adopted leads me to think many of these cross breeds are not as healthy as a well bred pedigree..but then,is it their poor start in life causing this? Years ago people talked of hybrid vigour...but today it is known that a cross breed will inherit the good and the bad from each parent,so it's a genetic gamble and you can't predict which parent it will favour.
Maybe to keep this discussion schnauzer based we should start a new thread where we list health issues to date in our schnauzers..were they from a kennel that health tested or adopted as unknown parentage? Etc..
My mini is from really well known classic old lines..she is the healthiest dog I've had to date..four years and not one days illness to date.
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zeta1454
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Re: Are Pedigree Dogs less Healthy than Crossbreeds?

Post by zeta1454 »

Jo - I do share your frustration at the blindness of breeders who refuse to health test or insist that their lines are healthy or it is not necessary because a condition is rare etc etc. Also the general lack of interest in my experience as regards vets caring whether a dog has been health tested or giving anywhere near the promotion of health tests for hereditary conditions that they do to selling flea treatments, wormers and vaccines. We have struggled to find a vet able to do the simple manual patella test and scoring (as encouraged by the Affenpinscher Club for all affens) although have eventually managed to do so and, as regards the eye screening results for our miniature schnauzers, where a paper copy to give the vet was included, the vet surgery refused to take it and said they had no room for paperwork of this kind and no means of recording the results. We were told that as long as we knew they were clear that was all that mattered!

As regards national kennel clubs and particular hereditary conditions there always seem to be some that they refuse or delay to recognise much to the anger of responsible breeders. Clearly it is ridiculous to state that DM is not found in standard poodles as it is a recognised condition in the breed, however, as with some other conditions in different breeds, Kennel Clubs can be reluctant to insist on a DNA test if a condition can be caused in dogs apparently "normal" . This quote from Pawprints Genetics:

"There may be other causes of this condition in dogs and a normal result does not exclude a different mutation in this gene or any other gene that may result in a similar genetic disease or trait."

https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/produc ... /?breed=20

Personally I do not think this precludes a responsible breeder from having the test carried out and, in your position with a standard poodle, I would do the same. The DNA test is so easy to have carried out and does not involve any anaesthesia or invasive treatment that might of itself carry a risk to health so why anyone who cared about a dog / breed would not do it I cannot understand.

Al - I do absolutely agree with the points regarding diet, chemical parasite treatments and over vaccination as affecting health. As regards what a breeder can do about the future welfare of their puppy once it is in a new home, there is little that can be controlled for sure and constraints of boarding kennels etc. affect decision making too. From a personal perspective, as a breeder, we give all new puppy families a paper detailing our approach to feeding, treating for parasites and our views re vaccination / titre testing as well as a copy of the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines for Puppy Owners. We always discuss our protocols on these issues with families beforehand and obviously hope they will consider what they do and not just follow whatever their vet says. Re food, we try to find out whether they would feed raw (our choice for our dogs) and if so that is fine (several certainly do :-) ) If they do not want to, we try to point them in the direction of quality wet / dried food instead. We also offer free home boarding for any puppy/ dog we have bred if families do have a holiday or other commitment which means they cannot have their dog with them. It is lovely for us to be able to see the dogs as they mature and for them to have the chance to spend time with their relatives - this can avoid the need for any restrictions which a kennel or even home boarder might place on a dog staying.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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