Fat/protein content

[Schnauzerluv]

Ok so it's been discussed already, but another question about fat and protein content in kibble. I realize most members here feed raw, but if I could get any guidance with Ozzy that would be great!

He turned 13 weeks on Thursday and weighs in at 10lbs (~4.5kg). I feel his ribs feel like they should, but he has a bit of a pot belly haha. Is it normal for a puppy, or should he have more of a tuck? Also he has a lot of loose skin (I think), do they grow into this or is it fat?

The main reason for my concern is that the vet advised me to watch his weight at his appointment last week when he weighed 8.2lbs (3.7kg). She said he was not overweight, but he is a big boy and stocky schnauzers tend to put weight on easily. He is growing so fast, 3x as tall and double his size, but I want to make sure he's not getting too much fat in his food or that his food is working for him.

I feed him Acana small breed puppy. Protein is 33%, fat is 20% and fiber at 5%. It's a bit higher than other brands in protein and fat.
Here's a link to the formula if anyone wants to take a look
https://acana.com/en_CA/for-dogs-1/pupp ... small.html

I was feeding him a cup per day split into 3 portions but I recently have reduced this to 3/4cup to compensate for other kibble I use for games and training. Now i'm wondering if it should be even less because of the nutritional value in this kibble. I realize these are only guidelines and your dog might not need as much.

What do you think? Is he a bit chubby or normal for a pup his age? He's always been a little porkchop since he came home and was eating Royal Canin puppy. So i'm not entirely sure it's the food and it might just be his frame. I just having trouble telling whether he is getting too much fat or not.

Another reason for my concern, I lost my Snoop (previous mini) to pancreatitis complications. He was also a very big boy and maxed out at 23lbs (that was his proper adult weight). At one time he went up to 28lbs So naturally i'm worried I can't notice if they are overweight. My chelsea was almost 15YO when we lost her to kidney failure, so she was a bit underweight or losing weight at the end. I just can't tell if they are a proper weight......

I will add Ozzy is MUCH more active than Snoop was, Snoop was always such a chill dog, hence his name haha. Anyway any help is appreciated!

I took some pics, don't know if they are helpful, he is resting after a big run around and play session this morning.

[Oscar 12345]

I popped in some numbers in the calculator. I assumed 9kg adult weight and 3kg or 5kg current weight makes no difference to amount and it states 1 cup or 120g. That's what I would use as a baseline and then subtract treats. He looks fine. I found that a pup fluctuates, one day looks podgy the next looks lanky/leggy. Pups are supposed to be a little rotund looking but as I said they do change. As a guide, I found that Otto put on 1 kg every 4 weeks. He started off at 2kg - 8 weeks. He is 8.5kg as an adult. As for fat content, puppy foods do contain more fat. I would change to adult food at 6 months old and also move to 2 meals a day at that point. Breeders I have spoken to have all said to move off pup food at 6 months.

[Schnauzerluv]

Oh thank you, that is so helpful! I had a look at Acana's 'light and trim' formula and the analysis is much more like I thought it should be longterm.
What do you think?
https://acana.com/en_CA/for-dogs-1/ligh ... t-fit.html

This is the 'small breed adult' formula
https://acana.com/en_CA/for-dogs-1/adul ... small.html

I will for sure switch him over to the "small breed adult" formula at 6 months, great advice

Your guide for Otto was perfect, seems Ozzy was about that at 8 weeks. Just checked, he was 5lbs (2.2lbs) at 8 weeks. Just what I needed!

[Oscar 12345]

Yes looks fine and has an excellent nutritional rating. https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-f ... mall-breed

[Dawnspell]

I fed Jasper the recommended amount of Orijen puppy which is very similar to Acana and he's turned out fine. He was 2.86kg at 9 weeks, and was 3.48kg at 10 weeks and around 10" at the shoulder. I have to say he has never looked overweight, more underweight if anything.

I wouldn't get too concerned about weight and stocky looks at his age. I think the vet is overreacting a bit on that one. Especially if he's very active.

[Schnauzerluv]

Thanks ladies! I didn't see any responses until now, appreciate that!

Ok thanks for the reassurance, makes me feel better at ease. I agree Jasper looks more underweight (very fit). Ozzy is a bit of a porker I think haha, well he is very thick with tall legs (12" tall). Aside from the tall legs that I love, he's always been a little pudgy in the belly. I am leaving him on Acana tx!

But going forward for his adult food, if I am concerned about weight gain, what is better to look for, low carbs or low fat?

Like i'm wondering if it's better to give the reg small breed formula in less quantity instead of the 'light and fit' formula which has half the amount of fat his 'puppy' formula currently has.

Quick question for Julie: is 3 meals better than 2 meals for weight? Is it just more convenient to feed two meals? Or he doesn't need as frequent meals as his growth rate slows down?

[Dawnspell]

I'm always dubious about any human or pet that's says it light. It normally means they've added something unnatural to make it lower in calories. With humans of course its our own fault for eating the wrong things or too much and putting on weight. With dogs it's the owner that controls the food so once you know the amount of food he needs to maintain his weight then you can monitor his weight and exercise to keep him at the same weight.

You'll probably find once he's over 6 months he'll gravitate towards 2 meals by not eating the middle meal. Or in Jaspers case he just eats breakfast as a main meal and will nibble a few bits of food at tea time.

[Schnauzerluv]

Thanks Alison, I feel the same way actually. I'll feed him a bit less if necessary, but i'll put him on Acana 'small breed adult' at 6 months.

But I had to laugh at the thought of him not eating a meal He would eat whatever I give him. He's VERY food driven. For treat reward, I just use other kibble and he goes bonkers for it all. Maybe he will eat less, I just can't imagine it lol!

[Oscar 12345]

First priority for me is is the food nutritionally healthy, and does he do well on it. Once you have the right food then I would adjust it for the right weight. I find myself tweaking the amounts depending on activity levels. It normally corresponds with a larger groan from me when Otto gets picked up.. In fact have just picked him up for a cuddle and I think he needs weighing . As for the two meals vs three. For a healthy dog then one or two meals a day is recommended. Otto gets a small lunch as a treat when being brushed/groomed. I try to keep in mind what a wild dog would do and that probably fits the one large meal a day with fasting in-between and some dogs prefer that. I make sure on most days that he has at least 16 hours tummy rest from last meal to breakfast (with the addition of small biscuit before bed).

[Schnauzerluv]

Oh thanks Julie, that helps. I'll watch him closely, but I'm not worried at all at this point. Actually i'm giving him a bit less to compensate for training kibble and training st lunch time (midday) instead of feeding him a meal in his bowl. Also he has puzzles, food dispensing toys and snuffle bowls for extra fun and a little snack when needed.

[Harley]

I think Ozzy and my Harley could be twins... Harley is12 weeks old now and 9.8 lbs. He was the big boy of the litter... same as my last mini Max who like Snoop was around 23lbs. I've read some say for miniature schnauzers protein around 15-25% and fat around 10-15% is ideal... If going by that seems like a lot of higher end kibble has too high of protein (Orijen is around 38%).. but looking at the ingredients it sure looks to be a very quality food. I wonder how many here go by the protein/fat statistics for mini's mentioned above and would it matter that much if you went with protein almost double of what's recommended.

[Dawnspell]

I look at ingredients rather than protein/fat levels. Also it depends on what food type, tinned (country hunter) is 11.2% protein, true instinct freeze dried raw is 37% protein, both are high quality food but just looking at those figures you would think the tinned wasn't that good.

[zeta1454]

I think it can be difficult comparing protein and fat levels between different types of food as Alison says above. Often the composition of the food is given in percentages and this will vary greatly depending on whether the food is raw, wet or dry kibble. If you take out the moisture from food it will concentrate the levels of fat and protein and the amount of dry food you feed a dog will usually be less in weight than if you are feeding raw or wet food. Raw meat, fish and vegetables /fruit are high in moisture and this is removed by cooking or excessively high heat treatment which also affects the vitamins in the food which may be destroyed by the heat process. Commercial dry foods have the vitamins added back in afterwards whereas raw food retains these as they are.

An example of the differences between raw, ‘wet’ food and kibble in terms of moisture and protein:

Raw: Moisture 71.3% Protein 15.8%
Wet food: Moisture 80% Protein 10%
Kibble: Moisture: 12% Protein 38%

These are just random examples so the amounts may vary a bit between different brands but it does show how much the moisture content varies between types of food. With our miniature schnauzer pups they would have been eating 200-250g a day over 3 meals of raw food but the Origen pack of puppy food seems to suggest 85g - 130g of their brand of food so quite a bit less.
I do find that it is easier to judge the quality of raw or minimally processed food as the nutrients are not so affected by processing but I would not get too worried about percentages if you have a good quality brand of food and your puppy is doing well on it

[Schnauzerluv]

Hi Gary, Harley is so cute and good know he is around the same size as Ozzy. Ozzy turns 16 weeks today and he seems to have plateaued a bit with weight. He doesn't seem as puppy pudgy anymore haha and weighed in at 11.4 pounds yesterday.

Yes Allison and Leigh, he seems to be doing well on Acana puppy at 3/4 cups (and added kibble as teats and for training, so altogether it's about a cup or a bit more. Yeah that's basically what I did, I looked at some brand recommendations here, accesed the ingredients to make a decision. I think it's doing well.

Thanks ALL for the info and awesome help!

[Schnauzerluv]

Ok so yeah, he's just over 6 months old now and recently seems to have taken a step back with his food! I never thought he'd grow out of 3 meals a day! But he's overall not so food driven (not as eager for treats) and seems not so hungry.

I thought it was because he is teething, but I don't know....
He still eats almost what is suggested, but the unenthusiasm for food in general is new.

He is not into his wobble food dispensing toy anymore. But he will still use the snuffle mat and the towel game I play with him. Other times I do a training session with his food as reward.

I am wondering though if I should taper further down to 2 meals a day? At the moment I'm feeding close to half his daily portion for breakfast at about 8am, a little snack at 3pm and the remainder at dinner time when we eat. It's the dinner meal he sometimes doesn't finish. Maybe we are eating too late, or not enough consistency, so I am going to not wait until we eat and keep out more structured. He can have a stuffed kong or something when we eat dinner.

So what would a good meal plan be for a 6 month old mini if he eats breakfast at 8am?

Additional info: He slows down (gets tired between 8 and 9pm), but he goes to bed between 10pm and 12am (when we go to bed). He puts himself to bed, he sleeps in the living room.
He will awaken after 8 or 9pm to play if oppurtunity arises, meaning he would probably stay sleeping/resting until morning if we went to sleep at that time too.