Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

BARF refers to Biologically Appropriate Raw food or Bones and Raw Food. It is where owners have decided to feed their Schnauzer a natural diet of raw meat, bones, and organs. If you are considering this for your Schnauzer, you will find lots of handy tips here.
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Morgana99
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Joined: 18 Nov 2013, 21:45
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Alfie
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Dog #2: Duke
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
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Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Morgana99 »

Hello everyone

I'm hoping some very kind, patient person/people might try to help guiding me through my currently very confused state!! :-s :-s
Apologies in advance for what I know is going to be a long ramble :ymblushing:

As many of you know, both my boys are Diabetic and have been for some time. Their condition is generally stable at the moment (touch wood). However, for some time I've felt I'd like to change their diet to one that is lower fat and more easily digestible as a proactive step to reduce stress on the pancreas. They are currently fed a mix of James Wellbeloved kibble and wet. They've been fed this since we had them and have always done ok on it.

Neither of them have had pancreatitis, but Alfie in particular increasingly seems to be having minor stomach upsets, stools that are less than ideal (after the first one, apologies if anyone's eating their tea!) and some flatulence. :ymsick: Due to the Diabetes, there is always a risk of weight loss & Alfie is looking slightly on the petite side at the moment, although his general weight is holding up.

After reading lots/probably too much, I've concluded Alfie's symptoms can be similar in dogs prone to pancreatitis or with sensitive stomachs. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of understandable info on recommended diets for diabetic dogs per se, so I've been using the pancreatitis advice as a guide. The All about dog food index tried to start off a thread on their forum, but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

I've read there can be initial weight loss on switching to a raw diet as the amounts fed are much less. This scares me as I want Alfie to gain rather than lose any more weight. Does anyone know if there is anything I could do to guard against this happening, other than over feeding which may have other unwanted consequences? NB: if/when I do switch, I'll be including the vet in the loop to do some benchmark blood tests, but want to pre-empt any problems if I can.

I've read through the many threads on here and studied the All About Dog food index until my head is spinning. I've also contacted Gentle, Nutriment & Natures Menu, all of whom have been quite helpful.

However:
- The Gentle samples arrived today and I have to say I'm now worried as the recommended portions are so small, only 1-1.2% of body weight, which seems next to nothing. If diabetic dogs' stomachs are empty, it can lead to a blip in blood sugar levels. Also, the consistency of the food wasn't really what I was expecting, but I know some of you highly recommend it.
- Natures Menu suggested their Country Hunter nuggets / Natures Menu Beef nuggets could be suitable: but I've looked in detail at the ingredients and the Country Hunter ones include fruit & the Beef Nuggets one contains carrots - all of which are forms of natural sugars, so I'm not sure if they've given me the best advice. This range looks good in that there are non-frozen/raw alternatives that could be fed if you were away or they had to be in kennels briefly, etc.
- Nutriment say their "Dinner For Dogs" range would be their lowest sugar food (as it does not contain carrot which is included in their core range). They do not use any grains, or carbohydrate based foods or any fruits in their products (phew). The lowest fat formulas in that range are Rabbit (4.4%) and Nutriment Light (5.2%). However, they also say this range does not contain offal, so I would need to add that in separately (there is an offal mixer in the range). I'm not sure I understand this, do some of you have days when you feed offal only, or do you mix it in with the other up to the usual feed amount??

So of the 3 above, I'm swayed towards Nutriment (always assuming the boys would eat it), except for the fact on the blurb it says the Dinner for Dogs range is aimed at small or less active dogs. Mine might be Diabetic, but they are medium sized and very active!! Does anyone have a view on this? The guide says you should feed between 2 & 3% body weight, so I guess if aimed at the higher end, this might be ok for mine?

I'd like to make a change sooner rather than later to help Alfie, although I will switch both at the same time, and wanted to have a clear strategy in my head before I consult our vet in case she comes out in favour of Hills or Royal Canin, etc.!!! X(

Any thoughts/advice/tips (on what seems to me like a complete minefield :(( ) would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Alison xx
Horace, Bearded Collie X, rescued 1984, left us 1993, aged 15 approx
Eric, Bearded Collie, left us 2002, aged 15.5
Elsie (Vowchurch Belinda Black), Beardie, rescued 1988, left us 2000, aged 13.5
Monty, Patterdale Terrier X, rescued 2003, left us 2012, aged 12 approx
Always in our hearts
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Dawnspell
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Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Dawnspell »

Just to confuse matters more have you looked at Naturesdiet website? Their trays of fish are only 2% fat and calorific value of 92 per 100g. I give Barney the senior/lite every so often and he has firm poos. He too can have second soft poo very rarely has flatulence. Charcoal biscuit normally sorts it if he has.

As for Gentle only feeding 1-1.2% of body weight, don't forget once water is added back to make it consistency of raw you'd be back up to the recommended 2-3% of body weight if feeding raw. If that makes sense.

I think the fact that some dogs lose weight when changed over to raw is more to do with owners being vigilant in giving the correct amounts of raw. Where as with kibble a scoop would be put out and a bit for luck. It's been shown most dogs are given too much by feeding this way so in fact they are Carrying more weight before starting on raw.

Raw and Gentle can be fed together as Gentle breaks down really quickly compared to kibble and gets digested at the same rate as raw. Which is why it's good for sensitive stomach. Pop a piece of Gentle and a piece of regular kibble in water to see the difference in how it breaks down.

Your local supplier should let you have a free sample of Nutriment. I tried Barney on the low purine but he wouldn't touch it. He just didn't like the smell and the fact it was a blob on his plate and prefers pieces of food. He also didn't like the country hunter raw cubes but

There are other cheaper cold pressed food manufacturers who actually make Gentle in the same factory. Gentle was started by UK woman but she went to Germany to get it made originally. Check out zooplus website for cold pressed foods as lukallus have different flavours.

What are your vets views on feeding raw? I've probably not helped but just added to your confusion :D

Forgot to say have you looked at dogaware website ? Search for diabetes in the article section as there's more info
http://dogaware.com/articles/index.html#health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
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Morgana99
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Posts: 1516
Joined: 18 Nov 2013, 21:45
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Alfie
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Dog #2: Duke
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
Contact:

Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Morgana99 »

Hi Alison

Thank you for taking time out to read all my queries and to give me feedback. I will follow up on your helpful suggestions and thanks so much for the link to the dietary advice on the dog aware site - I hadn't seen it & will go through it fully tomorrow, a great resource by the look of it :-bd

With the Gentle food, do you feed it dry and ensure water is available, which you would anyway, or is water added to it in order to feed? I'm still a little confused on that. I had assumed the pellets would be served as is, which doesn't look very appetising. I tried the boys with a couple each and although they are not normally fussy, I had the distinct impression they were doing me a favour by eating them :))

x

PS: don't know my vet's views on raw feeding which is why I want to feel confident in what I'm proposing before I speak to her, just in case!
Horace, Bearded Collie X, rescued 1984, left us 1993, aged 15 approx
Eric, Bearded Collie, left us 2002, aged 15.5
Elsie (Vowchurch Belinda Black), Beardie, rescued 1988, left us 2000, aged 13.5
Monty, Patterdale Terrier X, rescued 2003, left us 2012, aged 12 approx
Always in our hearts
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Dawnspell
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Posts: 4710
Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
First Name: Alison
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is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 06 Feb 2013
Dog #2: Jasper
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 25 Apr 2019
Location: Guernsey

Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Dawnspell »

You can feed it as dry pellets or put some warm water on it, apparently it makes it smell appetizing :)) for dogs that is.

It is a really good website. Is there a forum for diabetic dogs ? I found one for dogs with kidney issues they were always directing people to the dogaware site.

If you decide on raw might be worth trying to find out if there's a pro raw feeding vet at your practice. At ours there are some totally against and those for. Those who insist on prescription food and those like Barneys vet who believe in finding the right food what ever it is.
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
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zeta1454
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Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by zeta1454 »

We only feed raw and have used Natural Instinct, Nutriment and Wolf Tucker with our dogs but as we are not dealing with any health problems, I can't advise from experience. However there is a small company that produces raw prepared meals for dogs based on their individual needs so they may be worth contacting even just for a chat if you are considering raw as an option:

http://honeysrealdogfood.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regarding the offal - this is very important for dogs and should really be included in their diet as it is so nutritious. With ours, we feed an offal based meal twice a week ( not offal on its own).

We have fed raw green tripe to our dogs as a meal in the past as it is a very gentle but nutritious food although only occasionally now as we tend to buy the raw mix food with tripe already included :)

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/pure-green-tripe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can also get meat minces of different kinds without added vegetables if you want from all the main raw food for dogs suppliers. Some BARF feeders do not think dogs should have vegetables or fruit anyway and do best just on meat.

Re the percentages to feed, we have found that these need modifying depending on the dog's metabolism. We have one who puts on weight easily and so has around 2% of her body weight and one who burns off the calories so fast that he is on over 3% of his weight and has treats in between! The better quality the food, the less is needed as many of the poorer quality foods simply contain "fillers" which bulk out the minimal amount of actual meat in the product. This is why when people have previously fed kibble they do tend to think that the raw food portions are so small. You can see from the dog's poo that the more bulky food mostly comes out the other end whereas a raw fed dog does very tiny poo which will dry out and crumble away - an added bonus for whoever is picking it up :))

Good luck and hope you can find a good quality food that will suit your boys :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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User avatar
Morgana99
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Posts: 1516
Joined: 18 Nov 2013, 21:45
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Alfie
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Dog #2: Duke
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
Contact:

Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Morgana99 »

Thank you, Leigh, for the additional very helpful information. I'm starting to retain a little more of the detail on this topic now I've been reading it multiple times and am able to put some of it more into context with real-life situations.

So far, I'm still at the information gathering / testing stage. The boys were rather ambivalent about Gentle, although maybe mixed with something else would be ok. They like venison nuggets from the Natures Menu Country Hunter range. Today I got hold of some Nutriment Chicken Dinner for Dogs range, which is defrosting as I type and I've contacted Natural Instinct to see if it's possible to get hold of a sample pack (there doesn't seem to be a local supplier).

Coincidentally the vet called to say it's time for another Fructosamine test (which helps evaluate the degree of control over glucose levels in a prior period). This is quite handy as I wanted to tell the vet what I am planning. Not yet sure of their views!

PS: I have a 3rd freezer being delivered tomorrow, which is partly for the vegetables I plan to grow and partly for the new dog food :))
Horace, Bearded Collie X, rescued 1984, left us 1993, aged 15 approx
Eric, Bearded Collie, left us 2002, aged 15.5
Elsie (Vowchurch Belinda Black), Beardie, rescued 1988, left us 2000, aged 13.5
Monty, Patterdale Terrier X, rescued 2003, left us 2012, aged 12 approx
Always in our hearts
User avatar
Morgana99
Member
Posts: 1516
Joined: 18 Nov 2013, 21:45
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Alfie
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Dog #2: Duke
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 12 Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
Contact:

Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Morgana99 »

We went to the vet today for a double bill of routine check-ups and tests.
We won't get the results for a few days, but the vet was very pleased with how they both are generally.

I took the opportunity to tell her our plans for a diet switch ;;) . Initially, she was not very enthusiastic to make any change, but when I explained why, she started to come round, although she came down on the side of a scientific diet, such as Hills X( . Again, I explained why we were considering a raw (probably complete) diet and she has agreed to support us, phew \:D/

She is going to do some research too and will support us with blood tests to monitor, plus we have today's as a benchmark. I still don't have the exact plan worked out, but thank you to you guys here for helping me at least start to sound like I'm talking sense =)) Without this, the boys would probably be doomed to a Hills diet, or similar [-x
Horace, Bearded Collie X, rescued 1984, left us 1993, aged 15 approx
Eric, Bearded Collie, left us 2002, aged 15.5
Elsie (Vowchurch Belinda Black), Beardie, rescued 1988, left us 2000, aged 13.5
Monty, Patterdale Terrier X, rescued 2003, left us 2012, aged 12 approx
Always in our hearts
User avatar
Dawnspell
Moderator
Posts: 4710
Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Barney RIP 8/3/19
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 06 Feb 2013
Dog #2: Jasper
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 25 Apr 2019
Location: Guernsey

Re: Diet Confusion + Diabetes!

Post by Dawnspell »

That's good news about the boys and that the vet is on board. Keep us up to date with what you decide :-bd
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
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