Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

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Schmummy
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Joined: 04 Apr 2021, 15:17
First Name: Lillian

Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Schmummy »

Hello - first post so please be kind!! :)

We have been approached by a family in our local area (everyone knows everyone) as their black mini schnauzer is in heat and they know we have a 15 month old black mini and they want her to have pups. We had never considered him being a sire and he will probably go for the op like our 11 year old mini male.

Is he too young?
Will it affect his relationship with our older mini dog (ie get aggressive, start peeing everywhere?)

I think it would make the family extremely happy if it worked, it's a one-off. She is 4 I believe and we live in an area where there are very little opportunities for minis to get together because of our geography.

I'm stuck between 1. Just go for it he'll probably be useless anyway and 2. He's my wee baby and I don't want him to change!

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zeta1454
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by zeta1454 »

Welcome to the Forum :)

Many pet owners think it would be lovely to have a litter with their dog but it really is not a good idea for the sake of the individual dogs and the breed as a whole.

Breeding is a huge responsibility and should only be undertaken by those with experience of the breed, a knowledgeable mentor for support if you are a novice and the certainty that both dogs are fine examples of the breed as regards health, temperament and conformation. Although much of the work involved in raising the pups to the highest standards will fall to the bitch owner , there are important responsibilities for a stud dog owner and breeding should never be undertaken on a whim or without confidence that this mating is for the benefit of the breed. It certainly may affect the temperament of the stud dog.

The following are the minimum requirements for breeding with a stud dog ( taken from the Kennel Club website ):

Qualities required:

Fertility - you may want to have their fertility tested if they are not already proven
Appropriate temperament
Fully health tested
Good general health
Free of defects, i.e. overshot jaw, cryptorchidism
Has proven themselves in show ring, working trials, agility etc.
Registered with The Kennel Club
Does not carry any Kennel Club endorsements precluding the registration of any progeny



Before breeding from a dog or bitch, we advise that breeders investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. A stud dog can father many puppies and so it is essential that they are healthy and fully health tested to reduce the risk of passing on any health issues on to future generations. Stud dog owners can check which health tests are applicable to their breed by referring to our Breeds A to Z, or by checking with their local breed club. It is advisable to speak to your dog’s breeder prior to mating to see if there are any health concerns in your dog’s pedigree.

There are several health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases. These tests include DNA tests which give a definitive answer on the status of each dog. Where these schemes exist, we strongly recommend that both sire and dam are tested. In the case of a DNA test, we recommend that at least one parent should have tested clear for the particular condition. Read further breeding advice on mating DNA tested dogs.

Inbreeding, put simply, is the mating of related individuals – those individuals with common ancestors. High levels of inbreeding can impact the health of individual dogs, as it increases the chances of a dog being at risk for both known and unknown inherited disorders. It could also have an impact on the breed as a whole, e.g. a reduction in litter size and fertility.

Online Inbreeding Coefficient calculators can also be used to help you easily avoid mating two related individuals together.

Dogs have different dispositions and personalities and when choosing two dogs to mate together, both should both have a good temperament. The temperament of the potential parents will be a good guide to predicting the temperament of any potential puppies. If a dog shows any suspect temperament, such as aggression, then it should not be bred from.


Before the mating occurs, it is important that a detailed written stud dog contract is agreed upon and signed to prevent any future confusion. Ensure that a copy of your signed contracts are filed away in a safe place.

The terms and conditions of a mating do not fall within the jurisdiction of The Kennel Club. It is therefore advisable that any breeding terms or stud fees should be arranged by mutual agreement in writing between the owner of the dog and the owner of the bitch before the mating takes place.

A general guide to creating a stud contract may be found in The Kennel Club Assured Breeders section.

You will also need to ensure that your dog’s Kennel Club registration does not carry any breeding restrictions or endorsements. If there are any, before any mating occurs, you will need to discuss this further with the person from whom you obtained the dog, as any breeding restrictions or endorsements will need to be removed before the registration of a litter can take place. In most cases it will be the breeder who has placed the restriction, and they will therefore be the person empowered to remove it.

As the owner there are some key roles you should play in making sure the mating goes smoothly, including:

providing a stud dog contract
supervising the actual mating
knowing how to handle the bitch to ensure mating
ensuring the dogs are safe after they tie and that neither dog is hurt or injured
assisting or advising if the bitch shows little interest in mating
being available to give advice to the owner of the bitch on whelping or puppy care
being willing to help with any problems with the puppies, i.e. health issues, rehoming etc.


Using your dog on a bitch that is not well matched may have an impact on the puppies produced and your dog’s reputation.
It is your responsibility to ensure that a mating between the two dogs is justified and that a mating will be beneficial to the breed.

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/dog-br ... g-at-stud/

Enjoy life with your boy as a pet and don’t risk affecting his temperament or behaviour by using him at stud.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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zeta1454
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First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
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Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by zeta1454 »

Hi Lilian,
I know there is a lot of information in my post above and I’m not personally against breeding as such but, in the face of a major crisis in unwanted and abandoned dogs and puppies currently, the idea of adding to the thousands of miniature schnauzers bred annually in this country just because you can does upset me. This is not to judge you in asking your question or considering an offer that may be flattering to your dog but although you offered a choice of two options in your post, the most important of all is considering “why”? Why is the family with the bitch wanting her to have puppies and why do you want your boy to father them?

There is no shortage of puppies bred solely for financial gain or just on a whim but a limited supply of well bred puppies who will have a long and healthy happy life with a family who will never abuse or abandon them and whose breeders will be there for support and advice from experience and knowledge throughout the lifetime of that dog. Bringing these little lives into the world should never be the end of the story where the breeders are concerned and it is a lifetime commitment if you want to do it well. No dog however excellent in every respect needs to be bred and only those who understand the responsibility, commitment and demands of breeding should be encouraging anyone to breed. Whether a puppy is going to be a lifelong family companion dog, working dog, agility dog, show dog...whatever...the breeder needs knowledge and commitment to ensure those puppies have the best start in life, the expectation of a long and healthy life in the best possible homes as well as confidence that all necessary health screening and, if applicable, DNA tests have been carried out. No-one would undertake teaching, surgery, catering, house building etc. with no qualifications, knowledge or understanding of the trade or profession and the same should be true of dog breeding.

As I said above, do just let your boy enjoy his happy life as a loved member of your family and it would be great to hear more about him and see his picture if you would like to be an active member of the Forum. There are schnauzer families from all round the world here and advice and experience on a wide range of topics as well as the chance to share photos etc. :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
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Firefly
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Firefly »

Hi Lilian,
I think the owner of the bitch has put you into an extremely difficult position. Anyone requesting to use a stud dog should approach the owner well in advance, rather than waiting until the bitch is in season, which realistically only gives you a matter of days to (1) think about it and (2) if you decide to go ahead, organise the necessary health tests. The DNA test results usually take a few weeks and organising an appointment with an ophthalmologist, who will probably require you travelling a good distance to, prior to the mating seems to me to be very difficult especially over the Easter period! Personally I would be looking to her next season which would give you time to consider what you really want to do and give you time to take all the necessary actions.
As the bitch is quite old, I assume this is not her first litter, but even so you need to ensure you are prepared for her visit. For independent advice, why not have a chat to the person who bred your boy, as they will definitely be able to tell you about all the prerequisites.

Oscar 12345
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Oscar 12345 »

I have been asked several times to breed my boy but I am quite selfish with these things and want the very best for him. So ignoring for one moment all the really important stuff that Leigh has mentioned, would I want him to be on the look out for females, constantly, being frustrated when he couldn't find one. He is bad enough when he gets near a girl in season without having any experience of mating. Would be too much risk for me. Love my boy just the way he is and I will leave the professionals to it.
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.

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Dawnspell
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Dawnspell »

Its amazing when you have an intact dog how many people automatically assume that you are going to breed from them. I got asked several times with Barney. Not so much with Jasper he never keeps still long enough for anyone to notice his furry plums =))
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
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Schnauzerluv
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Schnauzerluv »

Just my opinion if I may. I would not breed my Ozzy. You sound like a really nice caring person, but he is your dog and I wouldn't risk a change in personality to make a family happy. There are folks who actually do stud their dogs out, that's what they do, so the family could easily find one on their own. It's not cheap to find a stud, but done properly with all the necessary testing etc, it's the way to do it.

I wouldn't let anyone pressure me into it.

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Schnauzer Sam
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by Schnauzer Sam »

One of my two girls (she'll be 3 this summer) is still intact and there is a mini schnauzer owner who thinks that I should let her boy breed with Edie when she's next in season. It was never a "goer" for me as I know nothing about his pedigree or health background.

I know now that we will not be breeding from Edie - although she has been MAC tested and is certifiably clear for PRA, has a beautiful temperament and is the prettiest wee thing going but if I take off my rose tinted glasses, I know she is a bit leggy to be representative of the breed.

In addition, I know that if we did breed, I would want to keep one of her pups and I'm not ready to have 3 girls. I'd also be worried that even if we did have three, she would bond closely to her pup and change the bond she has with Rosie.

She finished her last season at the end of Feb and we will probably have her spayed in May/June and get a little umbilical hernia she's had from birth repaired at the same time.

Leigh - do you keep your girls intact or do you spay them and what are you reasons and considerations?
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zeta1454
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Re: Is 15 months too young for our pup to sire?

Post by zeta1454 »

Schnauzer Sam wrote:
09 Apr 2021, 12:33
One of my two girls (she'll be 3 this summer) is still intact and there is a mini schnauzer owner who thinks that I should let her boy breed with Edie when she's next in season. It was never a "goer" for me as I know nothing about his pedigree or health background.

I know now that we will not be breeding from Edie - although she has been MAC tested and is certifiably clear for PRA, has a beautiful temperament and is the prettiest wee thing going but if I take off my rose tinted glasses, I know she is a bit leggy to be representative of the breed.

In addition, I know that if we did breed, I would want to keep one of her pups and I'm not ready to have 3 girls. I'd also be worried that even if we did have three, she would bond closely to her pup and change the bond she has with Rosie.

She finished her last season at the end of Feb and we will probably have her spayed in May/June and get a little umbilical hernia she's had from birth repaired at the same time.

Leigh - do you keep your girls intact or do you spay them and what are you reasons and considerations?
I think the owners of male dogs who are considering using them at stud often don’t realise that any responsible breeder is always going to look for a dog that will enhance and improve the breed so they will want to know the pedigree and health history of the dog, assess the in-breeding coefficient and may well prefer an older male whose good health over time is known and whose previous progeny have proved to be excellent. It is the owner of the bitch who would seek out a suitable stud and (especially if they are new to breeding) do so with the advice and support of the bitch’s breeder not for a male dog’s owner to offer them at stud randomly.

However, re your question about spaying, Sam, with our girls the decision has been affected in large part by the fact that we have boys as well, including one who is still intact. Regardless of whether the dogs (girls and boys) have been neutered, there seems to be sufficient circulating hormones for the girls to give off a scent at the time they would have had a season and for this to affect the boys - those who are castrated as well as the one intact boy! It is manageable however with the girls that are spayed but much more stressful and demanding with an intact girl and boy in the same household. With our mini schnauzer girls who had litters, we decided to have them spayed within the year after their second litter.

There is a fairly high risk of pyrometra (womb infection) in intact bitches although the few studies that have been carried out seem to show that there is a breed variation with some breeds more likely than others to be affected although this may not be certain. A study in Sweden* of the incidence of pyometra in intact bitches indicated that by 10 years of age almost 25% of them would have suffered pyometra. The risk does increase with age and, with one of our affen girls who we had not had spayed, she did contract pyometra at age 8. We did pick up that there was a problem and she was successfully treated and spayed at the vets at that time and recovered completely with no lingering issues of any kind. Pyometra is certainly treatable but obviously it is not something you would want a dog to suffer and there is always a slight risk of it proving fatal if not identified and treated promptly. We have also had two of our affen girls who we have not bred from spayed as well as one other that had one litter. As I say, the primary reason was our situation with the male dogs but the health issue re pyometra is an important consideration for any owner of bitches.

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11817057/

All our spayed girls did have the full operation and recovered well in a very short time but there are now more vet practices offering a ‘laparoscopic’or ‘keyhole’ operation which only removes the ovaries and leaves the womb intact. It is considered that this is sufficient to prevent pyometra as it reduces the hormones responsible for changes to the womb lining and is considered to be less stressful for the dog overall. Our experience with our girls and the full spay did not give us any reason to go for the other operation as all seven girls made such a speedy recovery but it is another option if you are concerned about the surgery itself, although I don’t know if you are having the little hernia repaired too whether that would make any difference? It is always going to be a difficult decision as to whether or not to neuter and there is more of a movement among certain vets and dog owners / breeders against neutering altogether but I believe it is an individual decision which needs to be taken in the context of the home environment/ family situation etc. as well as of course the health of the dog. There may be less of an argument on health grounds alone for castrating a male dog but for a bitch, the risk of pyometra or any other womb issue as well as the risk of unwanted pregnancy make a better case for spaying a pet bitch, once they are mature - at least a year old if not more. We have not had any health or behaviour issues with any of our girls following their spay - the eldest now will be 11 years old later this month :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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