Assured Breeder Scheme

[stevenlisa]

Think thats a bit harsh maty, people not involved in the dog world rely on the breeder to say when a pup is homed, alot of people are ignorant to how thing are done correctly. As they have been to an assured breeder, why would they think to question anything?

The schemes are just membership fees, the KC assured breeder scheme certainly does not go far enough and has no physical checks, completly disagree that to breed from a bitch 4 times is acceptable. All these breeders need to do is hold on to the feedback sheet and fill it in themselves, the buyer would be none the wiser and the KC wouldnt know who completed it. The feedback form should go directly to the buyer with the dogs new registration certificate.

[Tulip]

As far as I'm concerned I think the puppy buyer should be doing as much research as possible, I like to be grilled as much as I'm grilling puppy buyers when they come to visit before they put their name down. So I don't think it's at all out of the question for a buyer to research simple things like the right age for the puppy to go home. If they're ignorant then they shouldn't be getting a puppy in the first place until they've thought more about it, but unfortunately many rush into it.

I'm an ABS breeder and I certainly feel it gives a good starting point; more needs to be done, no doubt about that, but it gives food for thought for the puppy buyers that are willing to put in the research about the health, age, and well-being of the puppy they want to bring home. At least, those are the sort of people I would sell a puppy to.

[Grovelea]

These people had been told only to buy from an ABS breeder when they spoke to the kennel club about finding a Schnauzer puppy, and in the end they thought they were 'rescuing' the pup in a way.

[Eddie]

I don't think you're right Beth.
When we got Eddie our "research" consisted of a list of recommended breeders from the breed clubs. Our questions were when can we have him and how much does he cost.
In everything else we were guided by the breeder and if she was a dud we would have been led astray. Luckily she was reputable and responsible.
You can't expect Joe Public to be aware of the issues we have been discussing here for years.
Back in Australia we just went to the local pet shop and picked out a pup that we liked and could afford. I accept that it's not ideal but that is the way it's done over there. Eddie was our first purchase from a "proper" breeder.
Obviously we are much wiser now and with our new pup (who we collect tomorrow) I ONLY contacted breeders from the forum who I have known and respected for years.

[Robert Lockwood]

I think the internet has totally changed how we go about purchasing anything , very few people would now book a holiday without first looking at trip advisor or buy a car or mobile phone without shopping around and finding out the pro's and cons of a product and who's supplying it yet the same people WILL buy a dog ( a 10yr plus commitment) on the fact that ' it should be ok because it's from friend of a friend of someone that someone else works with' ! A guy i work with said a family member was interested i getting a Miniature Schnauzer and could i point him in the right direction - which i did, a few days later he came back to me saying they were a little pricey (£700) and that they'd seen them for £400 . I tried to reason as to why this was but no, 'why pay more' ? he said . Knowing this bloke is into buying and selling 2nd hand cars i reasoned if someone offered you a car you knew was worth £7000 all day long what would you say if it was only £4000 ? he said 'i wouldn't touch it with a barge pole it's got to be a wrong 'un'' !!....... point made...........

[Tulip]

But in this day and age, with so MUCH information at hand, puppy buyers should be more responsible for their actions and research as much as possible. Thank goodness we have so many come to the forum to learn and we're lucky this resource is here, but education is key. Just because it's 'the way it's done' does not make it right, and we should be encouraging people to research as much as possible (and we do here on the forum, and rightly so) but more so from the Kennel Club. It doesn't just lie with the breeder, all parties should be responsible and willing to research before purchasing.

[Maty]

Think thats a bit harsh maty, people not involved in the dog world rely on the breeder to say when a pup is homed, alot of people are ignorant to how thing are done correctly. As they have been to an assured breeder, why would they think to question anything?

Sorry you think I am being harsh but basic research would tell you a pup shouldn't leave the litter until 8 weeks!

My sister has had dogs in the past but Rodders is my first and I had been researching for months. A dog is a long term commitment so should never be an impulse buy.

[Grovelea]

Any Breeder worth their salt would guide a prospective purchaser in the correct manner, but, their are people who blatantly don't do it properly all the while using the ABS to give them some form of respectability.. the pup I speak of ended up ok, when she left her mother she had an upset tummy for a couple of days and the owner phoned the breeder and got no help, it didn't last long and the owner has done a good job. When I looked at the paperwork it was clear to me that the ABS like any other thing to do with the world of dogs can be used and abused by any unscrupulous person who wants to make a living out of breeding dogs. Sadly what started out as a good idea has not lived up to expectations in some quarters.

[Claire Farrington]

This discussion is very interesting as I got my first Mini Schnauzer through impulse without knowing anything about the breed. We had previously had many other breeds of dog in the family but when I got together with my OH he had had to leave a mini behind with his ex-wife and was terribly upset by this. He just said to me one day to see if there were any puppies in the local paper, I opened it up and there were two lots of schnauzers, one lot were already sold and the second had a little boy left. We went straight away to see them in Essex and the woman introduced us to mum and had loads of pictures of his father, both mum & dad were from Deansgate but at the time that didn't mean a thing to me, then we followed a very bouncy little mum to where the babies were and then a little boy was promptly put on my shoulder. What can you say when you have got a little bundle of fluff on your shoulders, especially a schnauzer I fell in love and the lady said do you want to take him now. I was very hesitant and shocked at the time but couldn't leave this little bundle behind, especially when I saw a staffie in another room with a litter of pups and that is how I got my very precious Sydney. Totally didn't look into anything but I did chase up on his papers etc and when they arrived I realised my little boy must have only been six weeks when he left his mum I think this is typical of most buyers and something needs to be done to educate people more before diving into buy the first puppy. I am the sort of person who likes to get right into something which is what I did with Sydney but only after getting him and looked into his breeding etc and realised the breed side of him was very good and I still say to this day that we were just very lucky to end up with such a smashing little bloke. He taught me so much, hence when I got my two now I did a lot of research from all different sources and definately didn't jump into the first litter I saw. I found my breeder who has continually given me advice and support and is the font of all knowledge as far as a schnauzer goes. Then I joined this forum and it is like one big Schnauzer family with so much help and I learn every day.

Looking back on things we were very naive when we bought Sydney and as others have said before it's trying to educate people to do as much research as possible in every aspect of owning a dog, but how can that be done. I think the ABS is a very good thing but only to people who want to look into it. I know people that get these wonderful little dogs and don't even bother registering their pups let alone read other things, you ask people what the breeding of their dogs are and they wouldn't have a clue or you ask their breeder name and they don't know, all they are interested in is that cute puppy. I just don't know what the answer is really I will say though that before we got Jack & Jill I had been on contact with another breeder who belongs to the Assured Breeder Scheme etc etc but unfortunately she didn't have what we wanted in the end, but I have followed her website still to this day and I have noticed that since I have had my two who are now 18 months old her bitch has had three litters already, how can that be right, she must be breeding that bitch on every season So what is the answer ?

[Grovelea]

A good post Claire, showing all sides of the problem

[hula-hoop]

^^ Claire, was it deansgate that left the pup go to you at 6 weeks or was that where his mum/dad were from originally?

[Claire Farrington]

They bought his mum from there and then took her back to be covered by another Deansgate boy. I was lucky to end up with such a good breeding but to let him go @ 6 weeks was something else, but all I can say was his mum was a lovely proud lively little lady ;)

[stevenlisa]

Sorry you think I am being harsh but basic research would tell you a pup shouldn't leave the litter until 8 weeks!

My sister has had dogs in the past but Rodders is my first and I had been researching for months. A dog is a long term commitment so should never be an impulse buy.

Surely a person not involved in the dog world only really have the kennel club to go by, as they are so well know. So they go to the kennel club and research and get a list of assured breeders. Surely that is research done? Those of us that know the reality of the assured breeder scheme know it is not enough, as being an assured breeder does not ensure the breeder follows the kennel club standard.

So clearly going with an assured breeder as a starting point is completly wrong and misleading, as it is so easy for breeders to what they like after they have paid their membership fee to the kennel club.

[Caramomo]

Here is what gets me;

Someone wants to buy a new washing machine, so they go online. They look at several different models to decide which features they want, they look at reviews to decide whether that one is reliable enough, find out the recommended retail price and then look at where is selling it, what kind of delivery times they will be looking at from that seller, compare reputations for customer service etc BEFORE they put any money down. So they may spend an hour or so researching an appliance they will spend about £300 on, use a couple of times a week for the next 8-10 years and the worst it can do is shrink a jumper or flood their kitchen - all reparable damage. They decide they want a sofa, something that they expect to keep for about 5 years or so, will cost anywhere from £600-£1200 and at worst will scuff their floor and they will happily wait 8-12 weeks for it to be made and delivered.

That same person decides they want a puppy, they go online, look at a few pictures of breeds or remember that pretty one they saw that one time and go to somewhere like epupz, stick the breed and their area into the search engine and get the details of the first ones they see nearest them. They might look for pups of a certain colour or go for the cheapest and that's it, 10 minutes and done. They then go and buy the pup. They see no reason to do any more research, they don't look at reviews of the breed to see if it will fit their lifestyle, take no consideration of training needs, don't look at the characteristics of the pup and have no idea of it's health requirements. This is a living, feeling creature that will be with their family for 10-15 years, requires hours of time each day and, in the wrong hands, could kill one of their children and yet they see no need to do any research into it's purchase? That is madness. Yes education is needed about types of breeders etc but where is the common sense? What makes a person spend hours looking at an appliance but only 10 minutes choosing a puppy?

[zeta1454]

Just thought an update on the Assured Breeder Scheme (which is continually evolving) might be worth highlighting. The Kennel Club have now achieved their goal of gaining official accreditation for the Scheme from the UK Accreditation Service and in order to do so have made many amendments with some 'suggestions' to breeders now being made requirements including e.g. the need for puppies to be checked by a vet before going to a new home or for the new owners to sign as part of the obligatory sales contract that they will have the puppy vet checked as soon as feasibly possible after purchase and for extensive records to be kept detailing matings/whelping/births/details of new owners/ health tests/ any deaths of pup or bitch / microchip or other identification details etc and these records to be kept for a minimum of ten years.

Much of the Scheme is as it was previously in terms of health and welfare requirements but they have tightened things up a bit and perhaps most importantly for potential puppy buyers: every new member of the Scheme will be inspected before they are accepted and all current members will be inspected within 3 years. Checks will continue randomly especially where concerns have been raised through feedback from puppy buyers. Priority regarding inspections will be given to those who breed more frequently and the Kennel Club will be asking members to let them know when their next litter is planned. Members who have undergone a successful inspection will receive a certificate containing the UKAS logo and will be identified as having been inspected on the KC website.

More information can be found on the Kennel Club website:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/4842/23/5/3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to add that I know many criticisms have been hurled at the Kennel Club and also at the Assured Breeder Scheme (with justification at times) however it is a move in the right direction and it is only by working to support efforts to tighten up on dog breeding that any changes will brought about. There is no professional body or organisation in existence from the Church to social work, teaching, the law and the Health Service where poor practice, negligence and at times horrific crimes have been committed by individuals within those organisations abusing their position and disregarding the ethics, policies and standards of their profession but no-one would suggest abolishing the health service, the police or the Church because of this. It is only by constructive criticism and working to eradicate abuses that a difference will be made to any and all organisations.