The Price of a Puppy

Information on finding your puppy, the Assured Breeders Scheme, the Kennel Club and issues relating to breeding your Schnauzer are dealt with in this section.
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zeta1454
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The Price of a Puppy

Post by zeta1454 »

For anyone thinking of purchasing a puppy and wondering about the price being charged, I thought it might be useful to have an insight into how the best breeders plan and raise their litters and some of the costs involved both in actual finances and in time, energy and emotion. Obviously there will be differences between breeds but for this example I will look at the miniature schnauzer where 4-6 pups are the norm. This is a long post but I do hope it will give food for thought.

The planning for a litter may start as much as a year in advance with assessments of the best stud dog to sire the forthcoming litter. A mature dog with years of good health, several clear eye tests, excellent temperament under different conditions as well as good conformation to the breed standard is likely to be the type of sire that will be wanted and, if the owner of the stud dog is willing for the mating to go ahead, one or two journeys possibly of some distance may need to be made In due course at the best time for a successful mating and a fee of between £500-£700 paid for the dog's services.

The mother-to-be will also have to have a clear eye test and, as there are only 37 vets in the UK and Ireland qualified to perform this, another journey will need to be made for this test ( 75 + miles round trip is not unusual) and a fee of £54 paid for the test and certificate. For the Assured Breeder scheme the eye test must have been performed within the 12 months prior to mating. Annual eye tests up to age 8 are recommended.

Whelping equipment and supplies will be needed for the birth such as veterinary disinfectant, special veterinary strength pet bed wash, cleaning sprays, water wipes, unprinted news-sheets to line the whelping box and several large vet bedding sheets to cushion the pups and give them a clean and non-slippery surface on which to lie and move around. For the actual birth other supplies needed include surgical gloves, lubricant, stimulating drops to help revive a failing pup, clean towels, replacement milk in case the mother is unable to feed the pups, and a heat pad with soft cover to give the pups a warm surface when they are not lying against their mother's breast. Heating is crucial for newborn pups as they have no means of regulating their temperature for some weeks after birth and chilling can be a cause of failing to thrive. In the cooler months, the central heating will need to be kept at a constant 22-23C day and night in addition to the heat pad. The vet bedding will need washing daily and wash loads will increase as the pups grow and toilet more often and are no longer cleaned up by their mum. If the birth goes smoothly the breeder may not need to intervene but, if a pup is presented as a breech birth ( bottom first) help will be needed to manually turn the pup and assist it to be born. The breeder must know how to assist at a birth, understand the process from the first signs of labour and be in tune with the mother-to- be to allow her the most support and as stress free a birth as possible. If anything major goes wrong - the delivery is held up, the mother is in severe distress or unable to whelp naturally then both mother and any pups already born will need to be rushed to the vet and, as whelping often takes place in the middle of the night, this will mean an emergency surgery at their own vet or a specialist unit. The costs of treatment, overnight stay, Caesarean section or even a telephone support call to the emergency vet will all add up, from £50+ for a phone consultation to several hundred pounds for any surgical intervention and all with a very real risk to the lives of pups and/or mother. (General pet insurance will not cover any costs involved in whelping.)The birth of puppies is one of the most emotionally fraught times for a breeder from the anxiety that something may go wrong to the joy of seeing new life come into the world.

From approximately a week before the birth up to three or four weeks post birth, many breeders will sleep alongside the whelping box, ready to intervene if needed at any sign of puppy distress but also to be able to get up two or three times in the night to feed the mother and take her out to toilet. By this stage the mother will be eating around four times her normal ration of food and may need calcium supplementation to support the huge amount of nutrients going into the production of milk for her babies. Gentle handling and minor 'stress' stimulation of neonate pups is carried out at this early stage to encourage brain development and support the pups capability to withstand stress in later life. By three weeks of age, the pups will be moved to a larger puppy pen, at least during the day, usually in the kitchen or other busy room of the house where they can be accustomed to household sounds such as vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, televisions, things bring dropped noisily and also given the opportunity to meet any other household pets. As they mature over the next three weeks, the pups will be introduced by the breeder to a range of different stimuli from the chance to play with different types of toy, walk on different types of surface, eat from different kinds of dishes, experience being alone, experience time in a crate and, weather permitting, play outside on patio and garden and the beginning of house training. Puppy pads are often used in the pen at this stage and it is easy to spend well over £100 on supplies of these both within the puppy pen and on the household floors.

By six weeks the puppies are ready for their car journey to the eye test vet and the screening will cost £11 per puppy. The visit does however give them the opportunity for new experiences in car travel and the sights and smells of the vet surgery as well as the eye test itself. Other vet visits in the week before leaving for their new home will include microchipping at £20 per puppy ( at the vet) and the vet health check. The pups will be registered at the Kennel Club at a cost of £14 per puppy for Assured Breeder Scheme members who also pay £45 annually ( due to rise to £60 next year) for membership of the ABS and, if they have an affix, an additional £25 annually to retain this.

Puppy Packs can vary in cost but will rarely be less than £20 worth of toys, a blanket and other puppy related items as well of course as a comprehensive information booklet covering breed characteristics, grooming requirements, health advice, etc.

A general assessment of actual financial costs for a litter of this breed with six puppies will probably work out at around £1,500 without any extra veterinary costs for emergency treatments. Puppies may be sold at £800 each and if one pup is kept from the litter, as frequently happens, the income from sale of the remaining five pups will be £4,000 gross or £2,500 net. As the best breeders may only be having one or possibly two litters in any one year, there is clearly no way that breeding quality pups is going to provide a living income. Many breeders are either reliant on a pension, a part time income from other work or the full time income of a partner to support them.

The best breeders do also offer unpaid continuing support to their puppy buyers from guidance and/or training in grooming for dogs they have bred, a lifetime commitment to take back or help re-home any dog they have bred at any time in that dog's life if some tragedy befalls its owners, free holiday care if the owners go away and cannot take the dog with them and advice at any time when needed.

It is hard to put a price on a puppy when you have been part of its breeding from conception through birth to an independent little dog of eight weeks old or more and which is (in so many ways) priceless, just as, for the new owner, it can be awkward to be paying money for what they rightly regard as a new member of their family but costs are involved in the raising of good dogs and responsible breeders can only continue to raise the best puppies if their costs are covered. For those breeding small breed dogs with tiny litters their costs will rarely be met and their breeding really has to be a passion for which additional income will be needed for sure. It is only high volume breeders with a minimal concern for welfare or those breeding dogs who will not be health tested, nor registered, nor raised with the highest standards of care who can be regarded as running a "business" or making a living income from the breeding and sale of puppies.

High volume breeders will usually be identified by having a licence from the local authority. Five or more litters per year is currently the usual requirement for a licence in most local authorities a,though this does vary between districts. The licence is however pretty much a receipt for the £200-250 or so per year that the breeder will pay for it as welfare requirements are minimal - puppies can be bred in a ventilated shed with food and water supplied and a licence will be issued. Violent criminals, convicted animal abusers and those banned from breeding dogs have all been known to have been given council licences to breed dogs as the council generally rely on the "honesty" of the applicant to tell them of any reason why they should not get a licence! As is highlighted above, the most responsible breeders will always be the ones who pay out the most to ensure their pups have the best possible start in life - they are the ones who pay for health tests, for the finest stud dogs to enhance the quality of the offspring, for the best facilities for their pups and the mother and often also pay for additional training for themselves on canine health and welfare and keeping themselves up to date with the most recent research on genetics and inheritance. If it reaches the point where laws and regulations require even more fees to be paid out by those who breed and sell only one or two litters or even in some cases only one or two pups in a year, then (as a number of the costs are the same whether you sell one puppy or one hundred) the reality is likely to be that the best breeders will give up altogether and leave the breeding of dogs to high volume breeders who can more easily cover their costs or simply evade the laws anyway.

The price of a puppy should reflect the love and care as well as the actual financial costs that have gone into raising it well. For anyone who is looking to buy a puppy, do have a good read through the Puppy Plan website including the Key Stages on the left hand side of the page, which offers more insight into how puppies develop and what you should be looking for from a breeder in terms of what stimulation and socialisation has been provided for the growing pups.

http://www.thepuppyplan.com/the-science ... LPW9EeQGK0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Question the breeder also, if they do not freely offer this information, on how and why they chose the stud dog to father the pups and judge for yourselves if, taking everything into account, they convince you of the quality of the time, work and commitment they are putting into their breeding..... and if they don't convince you then walk away - it is not worth the price whatever that may be!














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Eddie
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Eddie »

Thanks for a really interesting post Leigh. I've made it a "sticky" as it would be a useful read for anyone contemplating buying a pup.
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schnauday
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by schnauday »

Thank you for this post! Definitely one I'll be directing people to :-bd
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by jacdales »

That was a really good post a lot of people never realize what goes on prior the seeing the 8 week old pup. I know most of that was done pre annd post Hamish by his breeder because they told us the costs and why you could buy a cheap puppy but what care had gone into it's birth and early experiences. Hamish was even used to an electric wheelchair which was very helpful to us
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by redalert »

What a brilliant post Leigh, thank you for taking the time and trouble to post it. Trouble is most people on the forum appreciate the work involved in buying a puppy and are more than happy to pay the price asked for by the breeder. It such a shame a post like this cannot be put in a place where "Joe Bloggs" can see it to appreciate the work involved. ;)
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Maty »

Brilliant post Leigh :-bd

Sadly those nasty puppy farmers don't bother with health checks or even basic care like worming and it can be heartbreaking for new owners who end up with a puppy that is very poorly. Any money 'saved" on the initial purchase price can be lost in vet fee's to try and save the pup.

I know that I would rather pay the right price to have a well brought up, healthy, pup :D
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Oscar331 »

Great honest post. Thank you. :o3
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by ChristinSletten »

Hi!

Loved this post!

I'm planning to get a mini, and have a few questions - hope some of you may be able to provide me with some answers! :)

1. I've read a lot about the breed, and barking is always mentioned. Do you feel that your dog(s) bark excessively?
2. How do your dogs cope with being left by themselves for a few hours a day?
3. I'm looking for a S/P puppy, is it true that darker puppies often go lighter? E.g., brown areas turn gray?

Thank you so much in advance for any help! :)
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zeta1454
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by zeta1454 »

Hi - glad you found the post interesting :-)

Other Forum members will be able to help with their experiences as regards your questions but here are my answers:

1. Miniature schnauzers are a vocal breed. Some breeding lines may produce dogs who "vocalise " more than others and that is not just barking but a range of different sounds at various times. The breed are derived from the standard schnauzer which was a watch dog that would bark to warn of strangers approaching so they are likely to bark whenever the doorbell rings or when they see or hear anyone close to the house or garden. They should not bark unnecessarily or continuously though and training when very young should help to encourage them to quieten on command.

2. Puppies can be trained to cope with short periods of time alone, starting with leaving them for just a few minutes (while you are in a different room) building up to longer periods of an hour or two. Good breeders may have already started crate training and leaving puppies for short periods before they go to their new homes and, if this has been done, it will make it easier for a new family to build on this when the puppy comes to live with them. You can provide a Kong or other safe chew toy to divert the puppy / dog while you are out but, in our experience, most dogs will sleep until you return if you are away for an hour or so. Make sure they do not need to go to the toilet before leaving them :-)

3. Pepper and salt puppies are very dark when first born and the coat lightens as they mature, however the puppy fluff of an 8 week old miniature schnauzer is often much darker than the coat will be when it is adult. Pepper and salt jackets are composed of harsh hairs with "banding" of black and white on the same hair which gives the recognisable look. If the coat is hand stripped it will retain the pepper and salt look, although usually lighter than the juvenile coat. If the topcoat is clipped, the pepper and salt banded hairs will be lost and the coat will be the colour of the soft undercoat which can vary from solid silvery grey to a darker "brownish " black.

Pepper and salt dogs can have some hairs which are brownish or sandy coloured but these should be minimal in the overall look of the dog.

Hope that helps :-)


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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Suzie67 »

Well written. My girl had a litter about 2 years ago and I followed all the guidance on the KC website and found 4 lovely families for my pups to join. 2 years on, we are still In ]Touch and I get to see one regularly when he is groomed nearby.

People were amazed how much it cost to do all of the above, but also take into account a couple of weeks off work during the first week to be with the new family and the last week as I got them ready to leave with their appointments at the eye clinic, vets and groomers (my sister in law and also schnauzy midwife).

Looking forward to doing it once more. A lot of work, worry and love to come. :o3 :o3 :o3 :o3
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Lord »

So what was the actual price? To me there should be two scales. A pet price and a show price but who could make an exact pick at a young age like that and put it on paper?
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by zeta1454 »

Lord wrote: 25 Jan 2022, 03:31 So what was the actual price? To me there should be two scales. A pet price and a show price but who could make an exact pick at a young age like that and put it on paper?
Anyone breeding dogs should be doing so to preserve the best of the breed and to be healthy, good temperament and self confident. If someone is breeding solely for financial gain they will advertise the puppies as “pets” and care nothing for health, temperament or anything other than the price they can get.

A good breeder will not distinguish between ‘pet’ and ‘show’ in the price of the puppy as their main concern is that the puppy is going to a good home that will love and care for her/ him throughout her/ his life. However prestigious the titles or achievements of the parent dogs, it is never 100% guarantee that every puppy from a mating will be show quality and some may be outstanding in conformance but not have the temperament for the show ring. All show dogs should (and usually are) also ‘pets’ in that they live as family in the home and enjoy a full and happy life outside the show ring too.

As you say, at 8 weeks it is impossible to judge with certainty if a puppy will grow to achieve well in the show ring which is why some show breeders keep back a promising puppy until it has reached 6 months plus in age to better assess how well it may do at showing. Whether they then decide to reduce the price if they move the puppy to a ‘pet’ home is an individual decision.

If anyone is selling all their puppies as ‘pets’ at a reduced price or without registration papers etc. I would avoid them as it would imply they are not breeding with health and temperament as a priority.
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Lord
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Lord »

All dogs are pets I agree. But If I buy a puppy for show I buy a bunch of hopes. What makes in my opinion a puppy to be described as a pet are disqualifying characteristics and outside of the standard. For instant a black dog with white markings is a pet to me. A dog with missing teeth or not all testies that haven’t descended yet etc. so is a long dog and goes on. Why should those dogs cost as much as the pick of the litter?
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by Dawnspell »

I'm afraid genetics dictate that even if all the dogs going back in a 5 generation pedigree all qualified as champions not every pup in the litter would become a champion, but the same care and devotion by the breeder goes into every pup of that litter. When you buy from a reputable breeder you are paying for their commitment to breeding healthy pups, it doesnt matter what the pups go on to do.

Undesirable qualities should be less when buying from a breeder that shows their own lines, but its not a guarantee. Jaspers Dad is a multi international champion his mum a junior champion but hes ended up 16.5 inch even though he was one of smallest in the litter. Yet a half brother has qualified for crufts.
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zeta1454
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Re: The Price of a Puppy

Post by zeta1454 »

Lord wrote: 25 Jan 2022, 13:20 All dogs are pets I agree. But If I buy a puppy for show I buy a bunch of hopes. What makes in my opinion a puppy to be described as a pet are disqualifying characteristics and outside of the standard. For instant a black dog with white markings is a pet to me. A dog with missing teeth or not all testies that haven’t descended yet etc. so is a long dog and goes on. Why should those dogs cost as much as the pick of the litter?
As said above, when you purchase a puppy from a good breeder, what you are paying for is the dedication of that breeder both in choosing the best parents for the litter, carrying out relevant health tests, raising the puppies to the highest standards and providing a lifetime of the dog commitment to you in terms of support and advice. The more research, experience and care taken by the breeder for all the puppies they raise means the likelihood of such health issues as undescended testicles, missing teeth or over / under size is far less but there is never a 100% guarantee.

If you are looking for a quality puppy to show you need to find a reputable breeder that shows their dogs and establish a good relationship with them so you can feel confident they will be able to guide you in your choice. However, a puppy needs a home where it will be loved and cared for first and foremost and whether or not it achieves in the show ring should always be a hope and not the main concern. You are not paying for a ‘show’ dog but a healthy, well cared for and well raised puppy who will look to you to give it a happy fulfilling life.

As an afterthought too, considering the price of puppies in general, nowadays an unregistered, non-health tested cross-breed or mixed breed puppy from a puppy farm may be sold for more money than a well raised pedigree dog so sadly the “price” in purely financial terms is not necessarily any guide to the quality or health of the puppy.
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