Puppy Breeding and Buying - the debate continues

[chezdev59]

Some interesting points made here, I asked my vet if they could carry out the eye test on Tilly, whilst they do not do the tests they recommended a vet to us straight away.
We were considering registering for the assured breeders scheme but, having read the posts I'm not sure we would be interested. It takes careful consideration to decide whether or not to breed from your dog, all eventualities must be well thought about.
I find the very idea of puppy farms appalling, at the same time I would have to have assurances from the new owner of any of my puppies as to their care and welfare.
I know that when we found Tilly we were not told anything in particular about the breed (Tilly had been bought for me as I had been seriously ill. She has helped in my recovery, got me out walking again) although research on the breed had been done, the breeder was not very informative nor did they ask very much about us.
we have discovered a lot now and enjoy her company so much we would like to have another, we have also had enquiries about whether we would consider breeding from her.

[zeta1454]

The Assured Breeder Scheme at its best Is not for those with little or no knowledge of their breed or the breeding of puppies or how to find the best homes for them. It would be like someone expecting their works football team could just join the Premier League. Sadly many people who consider breeding from their bitch or using their dog as a stud have not the faintest idea of the depth of knowledge and experience, commitment, time, energy, financial cost and at times emotional cost of doing so. Whether or not someone is a bona fide member of the ABS they should be breeding to its standards at a minimum and to do so requires much more than a vague belief that they have a nice bitch and would like puppies from her.

The best breeders ( those with a true commitment and responsibility to the breed they passionately love) will always use a bitch whose pedigree they know; that has come from a line of easy whelpers and good nurturing mothers; where there is solid evidence that none of her immediate relations have any hereditary or other health issues; that she is good enough in temperament, health and structure to be producing puppies that can be raised with knowledge and understanding to be wonderful family pets with the likelihood of minimal of no health or behavioural issues for their new families.

The best breeders will have researched and understand the importance of neo-natal stimulation and learning in puppies and understand how to raise them with age appropriate challenges and experiences from the first few days of life up until they leave to their new homes.

The best breeders will have an in-depth knowledge of all aspects of the breed they have chosen to produce - its history; breed characteristics; any potential health issues; how to groom them ( hand-stripping and clipping with miniature schnauzers ); understand the importance of appropriate diet and know whether and when to vaccinate against which diseases and whether or when to use anti-parasitics.

The best breeders will be a mine of information and offer lifetime support to the new owners of their puppies. They will be able to show them how to groom their dogs; offer knowledgeable and experienced advice on health, behaviour, training and will always take back or help re home any puppy / dog at any stage in its life if tragedy befalls the family and they can no longer keep the dog.

As regards finding a stud dog, the best breeders will be looking for a dog that is even better than their bitch so as to improve upon any aspects that are not as good as they could be and/or to complement her characteristics. They will look for the dog who fulfils the same criteria of good health, good structure and exemplary temperament as their bitch, they will have researched his pedigree and they will want evidence of good health going back several generations. A mature sire ( 5-10 years of age) being far preferable to a young dog as he will have the benefit of many years to prove his good health and support the confidence that he does not carry any potential hereditary problems. No owner of a good stud dog needs to approach a bitch owner with regard to a mating - few will even need to advertise at all. The quality of their dog will be its own advertisement.

All the above relates to the approach taken by the top level of breeders and anyone who is thinking about dog breeding and does not want to be among the top level breeders should not IMO be breeding at all since there are more than enough puppies produced on a whim from a pet; produced to make a bit of cash or simply produced by those who have not fully understood the implications of what they are proposing to do by breeding from their dog/s. The moral issue aside, the whelping process is not without real risk to the bitch and her health or even in some cases her life, especially when breeding is carried out by the inexperienced.

[Barbarauttley]

But how do you become experienced zeta? I assume by doing all the research first,
having a bitch with a good pedigree and health and the advice of the breeder of the bitch, although I don't suppose hat is always available.
How did you start off?
I am asking as I find the subject really interesting. My mini, lovely Billy,is neutered!

[zeta1454]

But how do you become experienced zeta? I assume by doing all the research first,
having a bitch with a good pedigree and health and the advice of the breeder of the bitch, although I don't suppose hat is always available.
How did you start off?
I am asking as I find the subject really interesting. My mini, lovely Billy,is neutered!

Hi Barbara - yes you are right in your comments. It does take time and research and as much involvement with the breed you are interested in as possible. Some of the best breeders started out many years ago by working as kennel staff or handling dogs in the show ring or grooming them for a top breeder and learning along the way how to judge a good healthy dog, how to breed with care and responsibility, understanding about which breed lines have produced good healthy puppies etc. and by the time they started their own breeding they had a wealth of experience behind them. Nowadays large kennels employing staff are few and far between and the emphasis is on raising puppies in a home environment with plenty of stimulation and socialisation from an early age and anyone wanting to start out breeding will need to do more from reading, participating in breed specific clubs and online mentoring groups, and most certainly learning from other more experienced breeders they meet at breed club events and shows.

If someone is really passionate about wanting to breed in the best way, I would recommend finding out as much as possible about the breed - it's history, characteristics, health issues, grooming needs - ; joining a breed club, attending events and shows and getting to know a breeder well, meeting their dogs, talking to them about your interest in maybe starting to breed yourself and, if you feel the breeder is someone you trust and would like to emulate in terms of the standards of their breeding, then see if you can get a quality bitch puppy from them with the intention and agreement from the outset that you do intend to have a litter of puppies when she is old enough. The puppy will without a doubt still be endorsed when you get her as responsible breeders endorse their whole litter when registering them, but if and when the time comes that you want to mate your bitch and the breeder has been consulted and assisted with the choice of a quality stud dog, s/he will lift the endorsement to allow the puppies to be registered. A good breeder will also assist as and when needed with advice or even practical assistance before or at the whelping time.

Regarding how myself and my partner started out: we had our first mini schnauzer as a pet from a good trusted breeder and had no intentions at all at that time of breeding even in the future. We had liked the look of the breed and had read every book we could find about the miniature schnauzer from cover to cover before contacting the breed clubs for recommendations of good breeders to approach for our first pup. Enjoying life with our first mini, we added a rehomed mini to our family eighteen months later. A third mini schnauzer boy joined us several years after that We showed the boy as we had intended from the outset and did reasonably well with him and by this time we were much more involved with the breed through the Northern Schnauzer Club (my partner was on the committee, and we ran the Club shop), we attended many shows and had the opportunity to see a multitude of miniature schnauzers and assess their structure, health and temperament as well as meeting breeders and getting to know those who produced good healthy dogs responsibly and those it was best to avoid.

It was actually fifteen years after we had our first mini that we began to think we would like to breed and that we had built up enough experience, knowledge and confidence to do this well. In addition the time was right in the critical fact that I was going to be able to be at home almost 24/7 to be there for mother and pups and make sure the little ones were raised with all the love, care and necessary stimulation they needed to become self confident, happy, healthy family pets for their new owners. Once we had made the decision to start breeding, we did more research regarding whelping, raising puppies and the care of their mother and at the same time contacted a good breeder that we knew well to ask if we could have a bitch puppy from her planned litter to become the "foundation" of our line of breeding. As well as studying the Book of the Bitch ( the bible of raising a female dog and whelping etc) we read all we could find on how to raise puppies in the way we felt was best and we decided to join the Assured Breeder Scheme because it's aims and intentions mirrored much of what we felt was needed to help puppy buyers find a new canine family member who had been given the best start possible in life in health, temperament and socialisation.

We have learned with each litter that we have had and have shared some incredibly intense moments with the mothers of pups we have bred. None of our girls has more than two litters maximum and all have been exemplary mothers, from good lines of bitches who whelped easily and nurtured their puppies well. None of our litters or mothers have required veterinary intervention around the time of whelping and we have mantained close friendships with the families who have had puppies from us ( some more than one in the past few years).

And we are still learning. I have attended canine health training and a recent seminar with Dr Jean Dodds at the Kennel Club on issues relating to canine health, nutrition and vaccination and we are currently working on using the excellent Puppy Culture programme to raise our pups with challenges and experiences to prepare them for their new exciting lives as much loved family dogs. To me, breeding dogs is a privilege and a responsibility and if we could not do this to the very best standard possible, I would not do it. The Assured Breeder Scheme could disappear overnight and we would still do as we are doing and I know there are breeders like us all over the UK and abroad and it does distress me when some people feel breeding is simply an easy way to raise cash or just don't appreciate how important it is to really understand how much they are going to need to learn and how much time, energy and emotion it takes to breed responsibly and with love and care. The loss is theirs in some respects but there are the lives of the mother and the puppies to consider too and so many of the casually bred pups will end up in rescue due to behavioural problems, health issues or the poor choice of families to take them and that is something far more serious and disturbing.

Sorry if I have rambled a bit in my reply but if you have followed any of my other threads you probably know that it is a fault of mine

[Barbarauttley]

Thank you for that reply Leigh.. I always find your threads interesting and Informative.
What strikes me is how the dog owner has changed over the years and become more aware and responsible about the right way to buy a dog for a lifetime commitment. I think I am a prime example!
I bought my first dog aged 16 from a display of puppies in a petshop window which I passed on my way to and from work. My parents were horrified but we kept her and she lived for 14 years. She was a mongrel and my brother thought she was the ugliest dog he had ever seen!
My second dog by which time I was married was a Labrador advertised locally, with no pedigree and I now realise was from a puppy farm, reared outside and we never saw his mother. He was always a bit unsociable with strangers but was healthy and lived to aged 12.
Next we researched through books ( no internet then ) the type of dog we would like, a big one, who would do well with our 4 children. Our first English Setter- he was advertised locally but was from a home with his mother, had a good pedigree K.C. Registered and had been socialised.
I think dog ownership by then, the 80s, had changed and we were becoming more knowledgable and responsible about having a dog and its breeding and the responsible way it was bred.
Another long lived dog and a couple more Setters , by year 2000 and a grown up family we needed 2 dogs and when we were left with only one In 2012 decided it was time to add a small dog to our household. Having always liked mini Schnauzers and knowing an experienced responsible hobby breeder and shower , K.C. Assured there was no competition and Billy has been a super, very healthy addiction to our family.
Sorry if I have now rambled on but I just wanted to show how much progress has been made in choosing a dog not just for the benefit of the owner but the start in life for the pups and to encourage good breeding . I think the T.V and Internet have helped a lot and people like yourself who put the welfare of the dog first. Also of course this forum!

[BeeBee]

While I agree Barbara that more awareness of the needs of puppies etc has increased, so has the appalling scale of puppy breeding purely for cash and this is now a massive, global industry that involves dreadful levels of cruelty. So we have puppies, taken from mothers far too young, crammed into vans and transported hundreds, or in the case of some countries, thousands of miles to pet shops and dealers from the most awful puppy factories. That never happened in the past in the terrible way it now does.

In the past, people did not abandon dogs on the scale that it being witnessed nowadays, they were given to other family members, or friends if circumstances changed. The consumerism that now drives so many aspects of society has sadly spread to the relationships people have with dogs. This is a newish and horrible sociological phenomenon that's hard to see how to change.

[zeta1454]

Thank you for sharing your past experiences Barbara - I think you are right to the extent that many of the more thoughtful people are now choosing carefully and putting in a lot of research before purchasing a puppy and there is greater awareness of the puppy farming industry. We have certainly be cheered by the number of long emails we have received enquiring about puppies which ask lots of questions and give us plenty of information about the enquirer - it is still a minority but but does show that some at least are aware of the need to demonstrate that they are or could be first class owners and want to source their new dog from a breeder who cares about the raising of their dogs. My hope is that this will steadily grow in the future.

As regards the people who shut their minds to the horrors of the industrial scale puppy breeding that is another issue in its own right and as Bee says is probably tied in with the rampant consumerism which blossomed in the 1980s and has never really gone away and the criminal underworld that cashes in on this to provide whatever brings a profit be it drugs, alcohol, refugees fleeing persecution...or puppies - with no thought or care for anything other than financial gain. I do believe it will change however - attitudes and behaviour do change over time and it just needs those who care to keep letting friends, family...anyone and everyone ...know the reality of criminal and/ or poor breeding practice and the importance of making sure that if they are looking for a puppy they do the research, know they can provide the best possible home for a dog in every way, are willing to give a lifetime commitment to that dog and are concerned enough to find someone who breeds with love and care and not profit as a motive.

[Eddie]

I agree that attitudes and awareness are changing. Back in the day (in Australia) I bought a puppy from a department store as that was the way it was done. You can't do that anymore, but I think that you can still buy them from a pet shop window.
I would like to think that in some small way we help to raise the level of awareness.

[ZiiPAngelclaws]

sadly the message isnt reaching every one,

a fortnight ago i was in our local pet shop, the owner is a APDT dog trainer and has become a friend. one of her "students" (for want of a better word) was talking about getting another dog, so her chihuahua had a friend but couldnt decide between a Pug, Cockerpoo, Labradoodle or a Dalmatian. She then went on about how expensive these breeds were so might just get the unregistered mini Schnauzer she'd seen for £350. I piped in and warned her about getting a Schnauzer for that amount, mentioned health, eye tests, puppy farms and so on. I thought she was Listening..
Yesterday i popped in for some socialisation with my two and in passing my friend mentioned that the lady had been in with her s/p mini that week!

In a two week period this woman who couldnt make her mind up about 5 very different breeds had gone out and purchased this Puppy based on it being available when she had a week off work and the price.

[Dawnspell]

In a two week period this woman who couldnt make her mind up about 5 very different breeds had gone out and purchased this Puppy based on it being available when she had a week off work and the price.

That is another area where people need to become more informed. A lot of people think what size and colour do I want or just like the look of a particular breed. They haven't got a clue that different breeds were bred for different reasons and that you should buy a breed that suits your lifestyle eg in her case Pug was bred just to be a lap dog and sit on peoples knees all day, Dalmatian high energy bred to run along side horse drawn carriages totally different dogs. As for doodles its hit and miss which temperament you get

[BeeBee]

sadly the message isnt reaching every one,

a fortnight ago i was in our local pet shop, the owner is a APDT dog trainer and has become a friend. one of her "students" (for want of a better word) was talking about getting another dog, so her chihuahua had a friend but couldnt decide between a Pug, Cockerpoo, Labradoodle or a Dalmatian. She then went on about how expensive these breeds were so might just get the unregistered mini Schnauzer she'd seen for £350. I piped in and warned her about getting a Schnauzer for that amount, mentioned health, eye tests, puppy farms and so on. I thought she was Listening..
Yesterday i popped in for some socialisation with my two and in passing my friend mentioned that the lady had been in with her s/p mini that week!

In a two week period this woman who couldnt make her mind up about 5 very different breeds had gone out and purchased this Puppy based on it being available when she had a week off work and the price.

Oh christ almighty isn't it all so depressing. And this is why I will not give up, despite personal attacks which happen when you put yourself and your opinions out there, trying to make a difference, if I just manage to change one single puppy buyers attitude and choice, it's worth it.

I am a half-full personality, but some days, the overwhelmingly awful attitude when it comes to puppies and the lives we live with dogs, can make me really low. But, I look at Susie-Belle and Twinkle and know I can't give up trying to make a difference. They have really suffered so people can have a cheap puppy, at their convenience. None of us here on the forum can, if we truly care about our dogs, ignore this, as our loved dogs are part of a species that right now is treated very badly by humans. Please do what you can to change attitudes, the dogs need us to make some effort.

[rich 40]

The assured breeder scheme is a start but some do have more than one bitch in season at a time,let s be honest it is a business for some ,we are getting a second dog soon but I have walked away from at least three kc assured breeders as after doing a bit of back ground research it didn't sit right with me how many pups were coming out of there home s ,I just think if you are a hobby breeder who does everything right then that's great but there seem to be a few who may not have the right intentions which is why I think things should be regulated more!

[ZiiPAngelclaws]

Please do what you can to change attitudes, the dogs need us to make some effort.

After I'd met this woman I came home and emailed my friend asking her to pass on a load of info I attached. Info about why the pup may not be registered, focusing on the mother who may have been over bred, also mentioned again this pup would be from a puppy farm, health and eye tests etc. I spent a good 2 hours compiling this email including loads of questions she should be asking and should expect to be asked. I mentioned about searching for the "breeders" phone number to see how many ads they have had and how many different breeds, mentioned that places like pets4homes is the worse place to look, based on it being a route to market for puppy farms.

Obviously it was a wasted few hours, but I have it saved and if I see another person making the same mistake I shall pass it on

[BeeBee]

Please do what you can to change attitudes, the dogs need us to make some effort.

After I'd met this woman I came home and emailed my friend asking her to pass on a load of info I attached. Info about why the pup may not be registered, focusing on the mother who may have been over bred, also mentioned again this pup would be from a puppy farm, health and eye tests etc. I spent a good 2 hours compiling this email including loads of questions she should be asking and should expect to be asked. I mentioned about searching for the "breeders" phone number to see how many ads they have had and how many different breeds, mentioned that places like pets4homes is the worse place to look, based on it being a route to market for puppy farms.

Obviously it was a wasted few hours, but I have it saved and if I see another person making the same mistake I shall pass it on

It can get really frustrating, but I see it that all I can do is to tell people, to encourage them to do the right thing, and ultimately they make their choices. I do not feel obliged to withold my opinions when they knowingly support a cruel industry once I've told them the facts ;)
It's down to all of us who care to speak up. When we know about things, if we don't, we are little better than the puppy farmers and those supporting the industry by creating the market. It is different when people genuinely do not realise what goes on. Once they do, they're accountable.

[annie_a]

Obviously it was a wasted few hours, but I have it saved and if I see another person making the same mistake I shall pass it on

Maybe not wasted effort though, I wonder if we could use your info as some sort of template for the future so that if anyone needs a handy pack of info to pass onto someone or to refer to (I'm learning a lot from these discussions) they could do.
Unless something like like already exists on here.
It might save us reinventing the wheel if a similar situation were to arise. Is it possible do you think?