Puppy died

[kikilamour]

Hi
I am rather upset so this may be littered with grammatical errors. I had initially tried to get a rescue with Many Tears at the end of the summer but to no avail. I then found a breeder (who I believe did everything right) - updates, images with mum, lots of contact, nothing to hide, all the eye tests done etc The boy who I had initially put my name down for died the day I was going to see him. She called to inform me and I thought okay fine. I will take a few days to deal with it and think it through. She said she had 2 girls left and would not put them up just yet to give me time to think.

I thought boy/girl, it didn't matter so I said I would have one of the two girls. The girl was fragile etc, didn't seem as strong as my first schnauzer who is only 3.5 years and was really robust as a puppy.

The breeder was a KC breeder and I do not wish to cause any bad blood but would rather that what I have been though in the last three weeks (it has been bloody painful and expensive) is not experienced by anyone else particularly if she wishes to breed again from the mum who is her dog. I have written to the breeder to say what has happened. However I do wish to let the kennel club know and also find out if any of the other puppies have passed or are having difficulties. This is the second puppy to die in a litter of 8. How normal is this? I hope this all makes sense but I just can't stop crying.

[Robin black mini]

what a dreadful experience for you.I am not a breeder,but would offer the following advice..
First contact the breeder,telephone is best,to establish why the two pups have died..is it parvo? Fading puppy syndrome? Liver shunt? You need answers.what did your vet think the cause was...you need to get this this on paper if you can .
Then you need a refund..talk straight ,stay calm ,and see what she intends to do.
I would not accept another pup from this litter.
Lastly you will get better advice from the breeders here I hope,in the meantime I'm really sorry for your loss..don't give up in your search,this certainly isn't the norm.it can happen,but the fact she would nt release the two girls right get away was for me a red flag ,indicating the litter was probably fading.

[zeta1454]

I am so sorry to hear about your sad experience. The loss of a puppy within a few weeks of coming to live with you is heartbreaking.

I would agree with Robin above that you need to know exactly what caused your puppy's death and have the details of this in writing. Contact the breeder and let them know what has happened and the cause.

I would mention that "fading puppy syndrome" is generally applied to puppies which fail to thrive and die up to 14 days old so wouldn't be relevant in the case of the puppy you purchased.

The "Book of the Bitch" ( a well established guide to breeding) states that it is rare for an entire litter to survive and between 25%-30% of pups may not survive the first couple of weeks. However, once past weaning, pups are generally far less vulnerable and should progress with good care and nutrition to be fit,healthy pups by the time they are ready to leave for their new homes.

Basic KC registration is not of itself a guarantee of good welfare or breeding as it has certain welfare restrictions regarding breeding and controls on in-breeding but no inspections are carried out or mandatory health testing required. This is not to imply that there is something dodgy with the breeder you obtained your puppy from but the fact that she did not have a waiting list for her puppies, implied she was going to publicly advertise the girls does flag up a warning. Did she say why the boy puppy died?

The breeder should have provided a Contract of Sale, confirming that the puppy had been checked by a vet prior to sale and flagging up any health concerns at that time. The Contract should also give an indication of what the breeder would do in the event of a health issue arising in the puppy shortly after going to a new family. The puppy should also have had a minimum 4 weeks free insurance to cover any problems / illness / death in those first weeks. Did you have a Contract and insurance?

Apologies for the questions as I am sure that you are still in a state of shock from the loss of your little one. Take care and I hope that you can get some support and advice regarding the reason for your puppy''s death from the vet and the breeder.

[kikilamour]

I am so sorry to hear about your sad experience. The loss of a puppy within a few weeks of coming to live with you is heartbreaking.

I would agree with Robin above that you need to know exactly what caused your puppy's death and have the details of this in writing. Contact the breeder and let them know what has happened and the cause.

I would mention that "fading puppy syndrome" is generally applied to puppies which fail to thrive and die up to 14 days old so wouldn't be relevant in the case of the puppy you purchased.

The "Book of the Bitch" ( a well established guide to breeding) states that it is rare for an entire litter to survive and between 25%-30% of pups may not survive the first couple of weeks. However, once past weaning, pups are generally far less vulnerable and should progress with good care and nutrition to be fit,healthy pups by the time they are ready to leave for their new homes.

Basic KC registration is not of itself a guarantee of good welfare or breeding as it has certain welfare restrictions regarding breeding and controls on in-breeding but no inspections are carried out or mandatory health testing required. This is not to imply that there is something dodgy with the breeder you obtained your puppy from but the fact that she did not have a waiting list for her puppies, implied she was going to publicly advertise the girls does flag up a warning. Did she say why the boy puppy died?

The breeder should have provided a Contract of Sale, confirming that the puppy had been checked by a vet prior to sale and flagging up any health concerns at that time. The Contract should also give an indication of what the breeder would do in the event of a health issue arising in the puppy shortly after going to a new family. The puppy should also have had a minimum 4 weeks free insurance to cover any problems / illness / death in those first weeks. Did you have a Contract and insurance?

Apologies for the questions as I am sure that you are still in a state of shock from the loss of your little one. Take care and I hope that you can get some support and advice regarding the reason for your puppy''s death from the vet and the breeder.

Hi Zeta

Yes there was insurance which we are covered for as well as a contract which should cover the costs. Because the death occurred during the 'free insurance period' the Kennel Club insurance paperwork wants all the breeder details so hopefully if it has shown up with anyone else it should be flagged up.

The breeder first of all tried to blame my vet and even myself. I have however stated that the puppies

The RVC have stated that there was no consistency to her decline and it was all very puzzling. They do intend to do a teaching post mortem which should be completed in 6 weeks. Apparently at the time they called me early in the morning her heart was giving out. They said it was quick which gave me some comfort and I went to see her when she was there and she looked comfortable and at peace. God life bloody sucks.

She advertised the puppies when mum was pregnant and had a huge response so took the advert off as she wasn't sure how many would be born etc After the boy I was supposed to go and see died she 'felt bad' and put the last two girls on hold.

Vet and RVC are being amazingly supportive.

[kikilamour]

what a dreadful experience for you.I am not a breeder,but would offer the following advice..
First contact the breeder,telephone is best,to establish why the two pups have died..is it parvo? Fading puppy syndrome? Liver shunt? You need answers.what did your vet think the cause was...you need to get this this on paper if you can .
Then you need a refund..talk straight ,stay calm ,and see what she intends to do.
I would not accept another pup from this litter.
Lastly you will get better advice from the breeders here I hope,in the meantime I'm really sorry for your loss..don't give up in your search,this certainly isn't the norm.it can happen,but the fact she would nt release the two girls right get away was for me a red flag ,indicating the litter was probably fading.

Hi Robin

Thanks for the response. When I look at my videos and images the puppy and playful with my older dog until a few days after the second vaccine and then she went quiet, not walking much and developed a cough. After that it was a cycle of vets, emergency phone calls and then finally the RVC where she moved on.
The vet thinks it is a vaccine reaction that spiralled, the RVC think it might have been administered an NSAID 'Loxicom' ?

If nothing congenital is found in post mortem then I think they will have to agree on the medication being the cause

Has anyones pets ever had bad vaccine or medication reactions? Perhaps it was too much too soon for her little body to handle. Everyone is trying to understand what has happened.
This confuses me as my first schnauzer who is here and fit as a fiddle took everything like a champ and there wasn't so much as a hiccup from her. She had her first puppy and second puppy injections and then I just recently did the booster at age 3.5 years

[zeta1454]

From what you have said regarding the suggestion that your puppy's death could have been caused by a vaccine reaction, I would agree that this is a strong possibility. This had crossed my mind initially as we lost one of our dogs after an adverse reaction to puppy vaccination. In our case, she was badly brain damaged after the second set of puppy jabs, but did not die and we tried to manage / help her eventually to no avail and she was "put to sleep" screaming in terror at the vets at 16 months of age. The trauma of that experience was what spurred me on to research vaccinations and uncover a lot of information that is not given to the public and the fact that so much misinformation is promoted even by vets around this subject.

The vaccine manufacturers themselves acknowledge that vaccines have the potential to cause death, auto-immune disease and other conditions but rely on the mantra "in rare cases" to persuade people that it is OK to vaccinate young, frail puppies; to repeat vaccination annually or triennially, and not to worry if a dog has an ailment or is concurrently on medication or badly stressed. The data sheet information and the text of the Merck Sharp Dohme Veterinary Manual give this information but it is either not read by the vets or the guidelines are not followed.

This is all official information from the vaccine manufacturers:

From the Merck Veterinary Manual regarding vaccines generally:

" The more common risks associated with vaccines include residual virulence and toxicity, which may cause injection-site reactions, depression, allergic responses, disease in immunodeficient hosts (modified live vaccines), neurologic complications, and rarely, contamination with other live agent.................Recent studies have indicated that vaccines are more likely to cause adverse effects in small dogs than in large. This is because both receive the same quantity of vaccine, and the smaller animals receive a relatively larger dose.....Some vaccines and vaccine mixtures may cause mild, transient immunosuppression.

In addition to potential toxicity, vaccines, like any antigen, may provoke hypersensitivity. For example, rapid allergic reactions (type I hypersensitivity) may occur in response to any of the antigens found in vaccines, including those from eggs or tissue-culture cells. All forms of hypersensitivity are more commonly associated with multiple injections of antigen; therefore, they tend to be associated with use of inactivated products. Immune complex (type III) reactions are also potential hazards of vaccination. These may cause an intense local inflammatory reaction or a generalized vascular disturbance such as purpura. An example of a type III reaction is clouding of the cornea in dogs vaccinated against canine adenovirus 1. ..."


Regarding Nobivac DHP ( Distemper/ Hepatitis /Parvovirus) from the product data sheet:


i". Special precautions for use in animals

Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated.................


4.6​Adverse reactions (frequency and seriousness)

A common reaction after subcutaneous administration with the diluent provided, is a diffuse swelling up to 5 mm in diameter at the site of injection. Occasionally this swelling may be hard and painful and last for up to 3 days post injection.
In rare cases a transient rise in body temperature and/or a transient acute hypersensitivity reaction (anaphylaxis) - with signs that may include lethargy, facial oedema, pruritus, dyspnoea, vomiting, diarrhoea or collapse - may occur shortly after vaccination."

Regarding Nobivac. L4 the data sheet reads:

"Vaccinate only healthy animals.

Adverse reactions
A mild and transient increase in body temperature (≤1 °C) has been observed very commonly in clinical studies for a few days after vaccination, with some pups showing less activity and/or a reduced appetite. A small transient swelling at the site of injection (≤4 cm), which can occasionally be firm and painful on palpation, has been observed very commonly in clinical studies. Any such swelling will either have disappeared or be clearly diminished by 14 days post-vaccination.
In very rare cases, clinical signs of immune-mediated haemolytic anaemia, immune-mediated thrombocytopenia, or immune-mediated polyarthritis have been reported. In very rare cases a transient acute hypersensitivity reaction may occur. Such reactions may evolve to a more severe condition (anaphylaxis), which may be life-threatening. If such reactions occur appropriate treatment is recommended."

As to the breeder being held responsible, if your puppy's death is confirmed as an adverse vaccine reaction, it is unlikely that any blame can be laid on them, even if the puppy was somewhat frail as the vet should have assessed her health before administering any vaccines. The vaccine data sheet as shown above warns that only healthy dogs should be vaccinated and if there was a need to give the puppy any other medication due to ill health that should have immediately contra-indicated vaccination at that time.

We warn all our puppy buyers now against vaccinating before 12 weeks of age, if the puppy leaves us before that age, although it is of course their own decision if they do want to have the jabs given before that. We also warn against giving the Lepto vaccine as this is the one that is known to be the least effective and has had so many reported adverse reactions that there are support / information sharing groups now on social media for people whose dogs have been made ill or died shortly after receiving the vaccine.

Since the death of our young dog (from a first class breeder) due to vaccine damage, I would always recommend people to be very wary of continually vaccinating their dogs, titre test after the initial puppy vaccinations to see if the dog has immunity if you are worried, and be very careful as to which vaccines are given. As the manufacturers ( pharmaceutical companies) acknowledge vaccines are not 100% effective, do not provide protection to all dogs and do have the potential to cause chronic illness and death.

"The immune response, being a biologic process, never confers absolute protection nor is equal in all individuals of a vaccinated population. Because the response is influenced by many factors, the range in a random population tends to follow a normal distribution: the response will be average in most animals, excellent in a few, and poor in a few. An effective vaccine may not protect those with a poor response; it is difficult to protect 100% of a random population by vaccination.."

It will be helpful that a post mortem is being carried out and that a cause of death should be clarified in time. That in itself is much more than many pet owners have available to them and I know people personally who have been actively discouraged from having a post mortem done after the sudden unexpected death of their dog or whose vet bills have been paid by the pharmaceutical company on condition they do not discuss what has happened.

[kikilamour]

I guess you don't know what you don't know. With my first schnauzer we just followed all the rules in terms of vaccine and putting her on the ground and she is happy and bouncing around (she is a bit sombre at the moment and gives me odd looks when I cry) Now I am just waiting for the post mortem results to come in after Christmas and calm down

Are more vets advertising about the side effects of the vaccine as I dont think this is widely known? I am going to show my vet this post

I also have a friend who took her dog to a vet in the Richmond area and was told off when she said she hadn't given the booster. The vet then proceeded to give the dog the booster. How do you deal with that sort of thinking?

Actually I am going to send you a private message if you don't mind

[Bellamia]

Oh dear, so very sad to hear about you and your poor puppy, sending our deepest sympathy and prayers. It is bad enough to lose a beloved elderly pet but a baby is too sad. Our cairn terrier had a bad reaction to a booster when she was about 3 so I stopped it, she lived to 16 and was the healthiest little dog, since then I've always been concerned about the necessity to give boosters. Our vets are absolutely brilliant but they still push giving booster vaccines and it always makes me worry if I don't have our girls vaccinated but I'm going to have them Titre tested next time they are due, just hate the thought of all those chemicals being given unnecessarily. Saying that we believe our B&S had a bad reaction when previous vets did her puppy vaccine AND flea treatment (pipette on back of neck) at the same time and she had an intussusception a few days later, we nearly lost her at 12 weeks, sadly lost her last year aged 5 with kidney disease. We often wonder if what happened to her damaged her kidneys? Our current vets would never give these treatments at the same time as said it's too much for their little bodies to cope with.
Sending you prayers that you can find comfort and peace soon.

[kikilamour]

Oh dear, so very sad to hear about you and your poor puppy, sending our deepest sympathy and prayers. It is bad enough to lose a beloved elderly pet but a baby is too sad. Our cairn terrier had a bad reaction to a booster when she was about 3 so I stopped it, she lived to 16 and was the healthiest little dog, since then I've always been concerned about the necessity to give boosters. Our vets are absolutely brilliant but they still push giving booster vaccines and it always makes me worry if I don't have our girls vaccinated but I'm going to have them Titre tested next time they are due, just hate the thought of all those chemicals being given unnecessarily. Saying that we believe our B&S had a bad reaction when previous vets did her puppy vaccine AND flea treatment (pipette on back of neck) at the same time and she had an intussusception a few days later, we nearly lost her at 12 weeks, sadly lost her last year aged 5 with kidney disease. We often wonder if what happened to her damaged her kidneys? Our current vets would never give these treatments at the same time as said it's too much for their little bodies to cope with.
Sending you prayers that you can find comfort and peace soon.

Well my older schnauzer who is going to be 4 in April had a booster in August and she always seems fine and rock solid but I dread to think what the vaccines have done to her so this is the end of the road for vaccines and her I guess. If I lost her I would need at least 6 months of therapy. I mean I even limit her to two Advocat doses a year as the smell is scary and it is clearly a strong chemical. I have also noticed her go ominously quiet after a dose which scares me. After my experience I am telling anyone and everyone about vaccine reactions and what has happened. I am also preaching the benefits of insurance

[Hot Poppy]

I am very sorry to hear about your little one.
There is a lot of issues with vaccines especially the Lepto 2 and 4 at the moment. Core vaccines for older animals should only be given every at three yearly intervals or possibly longer. The Lepto vaccines are causing a lot of adverse reactions aven many fatalities. I'm not saying that this is the case but seems very coincidental that this has happened. Of course a vet will try to fob you off with the usual "within 24 hours after vaccine", but this isn't true, reactions can happen days, months or even years afterwards. There is a few sites on facebook you can also go to re vaccinations, I am part of one called Nobivac Lepto 4 Our Experiences, they will also guide you to other groups. Well worth reading and investigating even if it's for your own sanity.

I really do hope you find your answers as I can understand how devastated you must be now.

[Grice]

I hope you've since found answers and some peace