Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Information on finding your puppy, the Assured Breeders Scheme, the Kennel Club and issues relating to breeding your Schnauzer are dealt with in this section.
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Steve symonds
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Joined: 15 Apr 2017, 20:26
First Name: Steve

Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by Steve symonds »

Hi,

I'm currently searching for a healthy well bred puppy for a family pet.

I've seen an advert on line through homes4pets from someone local and I understand the dam is Kc registered and has a recent eye test which I've checked on the Kc website. The Sire is also Kc registered, had an eye test as a pup as part of his litter screening but nothing since.

The seller suggests that when the eye test for the dam is clear, having an eye test on the sire is not so important, as long as it's had at least one test. I'd be very grateful if someone could comment on whether this is correct or generally acceptable good practice.

As a prospective first time puppy owner I've been reading the forum posts with much interest and used the comments and suggestions to hopefully ask the right questions.

I understand the seller is not a Kc assured breeder, but does have some experience, albeit with another breed. The litter has been bred at home and is intended to be well socialised before being available at 8 weeks, which I'll check shortly when visiting at 4 weeks.

It's the dams first litter at two & half years old, there are eleven pups in the litter, which I understand is more than usual.
The Sire is four & half years old, from it's owners registration certificate both of its parents were eye tested and clear.

I'd be very grateful for any comments or suggestions on whether I should be concerned about the sire's lack of recent eye test or any of the above information.

We're planning on viewing the pups next week but would consider cancelling if there were significant concerns.

Thanks in anticipation
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zeta1454
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Re: Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by zeta1454 »

Hi and welcome to the Forum :-)

The information you have been given regarding the eye tests sounds very misleading:

If the only eye screening the sire has had was as part of the litter screening when was 6/7 weeks old, he will only have been screened for Congenital Hereditary Cataracts and not the other two hereditary eye conditions which are Hereditary Cataracts and Progressive Retinal Atrophy. These can only be screened for on a mature dog and should be carried out annually on any miniature schnauzer used for breeding.

Currently as there is not a DNA test for these hereditary eye conditions in miniature schnauzers, breeders are reliant on their knowledge of pedigrees, experience in the breed and the annual eye test on the dam and sire to try and ensure that they do not breed a litter with any of the above conditions. It is never going to be a 100% guarantee with just a physical eye screening as the examination of the eyes will only reveal the situation on the day and it is still possible for dogs to develop one of these conditions up to about 8 years of age. This is why annual tests are so important and why no-one should be using a dog or bitch who has not been tested clear within the previous 12 months.

The gene/s for the eye conditions do have to be carried on both sides of the pedigree but it is irresponsible to suggest that because one side may not have recorded an eye problem, that it is an irrelevance in terms of breeding, as long as the dam has had a clear test.

The eye examination does not prove that a dog is not a carrier of the gene for the eye conditions, it only certifies that on the day the test was carried out, "No Clinical Abnormality" was detected which might indicate a hereditary eye problem. It is vital, as that is the only current way of trying to ensure that litters are not bred without eye conditions, that breeding stock ( dam and sire) have had annual and recent clear eye tests. The more mature the sire, with a record of clear tests, the more confidence can be placed in his status but for a stud dog under 8 years old, this is far less certain.

As regards the number of puppies, this is a very large litter. It is not the largest ever recorded for a mini but I would be wary unless very confident in the breeder that this is not a case of some (or all) of the puppies having been brought in to sell from elsewhere. Without a DNA test of course it is impossible to be certain but I would be very cautious if you have any doubts about the breeder/ seller. Average litter is 4-6 pups.

You are often going to struggle with verifying information from online sellers even with the minimal KC registration and a healthy well raised family pet is only going to come from the best quality breeder. The best way to find a good puppy is to find a good breeder before they have any puppies to sell so that you can check them out at your leisure and get your name on waiting lists for when pups are born in due course. All the best breeders have waiting lists and may rarely advertise at all so will never use the well known online selling sites which are dominated by puppy farmers and third party sellers.




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Steve symonds
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 Apr 2017, 20:26
First Name: Steve

Re: Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by Steve symonds »

Thanks for the reply Leigh, much appreciated.

I've decided not to deal with the online seller providing misleading eye test info and have today spoken with two Kc assured breeders locally in Bristol and will be visiting to discuss joining their waiting lists.

I guess we're too used to finding and buying fairly quickly online, sometimes we need to take expert advice and hopefully .. good things come to those that wait.

In the meantime there's lots to read and learn from this forum, I'm just getting started!

Thanks again, I feel I'm now on the right track.
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zeta1454
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Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by zeta1454 »

I'm sure you have made the right decision :-)

Good luck with your search and look forward to hearing more when you do get your new little pup.


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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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Steve symonds
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 Apr 2017, 20:26
First Name: Steve

Re: Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by Steve symonds »

It does seem odd that the Kc registers pups from dams/sires who, from their owners registration certificate, clearly have no health check records.

I would have thought submitting health check records of dam and sire, together with litter screening, would be mandatory before pup Kc registration.

Such minimal criteria for Kc registration of pups seems misleading to the inexperienced owner and devalues the Kc's reputation and brand. I understand registration is all about demonstrating pedigree but I expected it also to be concerned about health. Why have a section on the certificate for health records and accept no regular checks for recognised hereditary conditions?
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Puppy search - Stud health checks?

Post by zeta1454 »

There has been an on-going topic of debate for many years among caring dog breeders / owners as to whether the Kennel Club should extend the requirements of the Assured Breeder Scheme to all those who want to register a litter of puppies which would make it therefore a requirement that parent dogs are regularly eye screened before being bred from.

If it was mandatory for breeders to do certain health tests before registering their litters, the likely outcome would be that the breeders who currently do not health screen would stop registering their puppies. As with membership of the ABS, there is little or no financial advantage to a breeder to health test - many doing so are wanting to be assured of the health of their dogs and breeding lines. Nowadays you can find hundreds of crossbreed and mixed breed dogs with no health tests or KC registration currently selling online for over £1,000 which is in excess of many health tested pedigree dogs. I already know too that some puppies are actually advertised as non-KC registered because the dogs are being bred as "family pets" and not show dogs!!

Some could say 'well so what if only a tiny percentage of dogs are ever registered?' Even under the current system a far higher number of "pedigree" dogs (as well as cross breed) are not registered with the Kennel Club than those that are. However, the Kennel Club, as a registration service of pedigree puppies does record (and make available to the public) information that puppy seekers can use to identify those who breed without doing health checks, levels of in-breeding etc. Information on those who do register their litters can provide useful statistics not only on numbers of particular breeds and identifying those which are vulnerable but also those who are clearly being "farmed" and for which puppy seekers should be particularly cautious when looking for a puppy. French Bulldogs being a prime example.

There are also an increasing number of hereditary health conditions that can now be tested for and gradually these are being acknowledged by the Kennel Club and recorded even if not mandatory. MAC testing for miniature schnauzers is an example and very few breeders are currently carrying this out - it requires cheek swabs to be sent to the USA. So there is also the question of which and how many tests a puppy seeker wants to require from a breeder and how many the KC should make mandatory.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-r ... schnauzer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do agree with you though that people often misunderstand the meaning of KC registration which, although it does have certain restrictions on the litters to be registered, is not as demanding as the requirements of the ABS most especially with regard to hereditary health conditions and rearing puppies in an enriched environment. However, it is important to be aware that health testing and compliance with welfare standards are still only the start of judging the merits of a good breeder and providing on-going enrichment and challenges are just as significant for raising a fit healthy puppy but will be far harder to record and will rely on the independent research of the puppy seeker.

As it stands today, KC registration alone certainly does have limitations and it is vital that anyone looking for a well bred puppy is aware of this and uses all the tools and resources which are available to them, via the Kennel Club website, to check health status, inbreeding and other information before making a decision on getting a puppy from a breeder. It is a responsibility that caring puppy seekers should be happy to take on. Relying on a "brand" or a certificate or similar is just not enough when you are looking for a new member of your family.

The Kennel Club website and their MyKC resource should always be the starting point for research by anyone looking for a puppy:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/mykc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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