crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

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chilterns39
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Joined: 09 Oct 2017, 18:29
First Name: Ian

crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by chilterns39 »

I have a standard schnauzer (male) and have been approached by the owner of a female miniature with the idea of mating them. Your views/ observations/recommendations would be welcome.
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zeta1454
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by zeta1454 »

No-one should be casually breeding or casually cross-breeding and I am not sure from your post whether you are an experienced stud dog owner or whether any compelling reasons have been offered by the owner of the miniature schnauzer as to why they want to cross breed their dog.

Breeding should be done with careful thought and the desire to improve the breed; a knowledge of the pedigree of the dogs and a concern to ensure that only the best temperament, good conformation and healthy dogs are bred together.

There is an article on this link which gives more information regarding using a dog at stud:

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breedi ... g-at-stud/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I cannot think of any reason to cross breed randomly any dogs. If dogs are to be cross bred, there should be a solid health / temperament reason and both bitch and stud dog owner must be sure that all health tests have been carried out on their respective dogs. Miniature Schnauzers need to be eye tested by a BVA specialist eye vet for hereditary eye conditions and should have been DNA tested for MAC. No responsible stud dog owner would allow their dog to be used by anyone whose bitch does not have the relevant health tests.

It is well known that many unscrupulous breeders use cross breeding as a way to evade welfare conditions imposed by the Kennel Club which apply to 'pure-bred' puppies registered by their breeder.

My recommendation - don't get involved in what sounds to me to be an irresponsible and thoughtless suggestion with a view to money making at the expense of dog welfare.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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chilterns39
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Joined: 09 Oct 2017, 18:29
First Name: Ian

Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by chilterns39 »

Thank you for your reply. My schnauzer is in good health and the bitch seems to be also. I have not asked for a health cert for her. I have not committed myself as to the cross breeding. My main concerns are firstly the difference in size of the two animals and secondly the bitch is only 18 months old. The owners say that she is entering her third period in heat.
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Dawnspell
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Dawnspell »

Im no breeder but I wouldn't have thought it a good idea to cross a much larger male to a smaller female either. That has to cause problems for the bitch.

So many things not right, stay well away.
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Robin black mini
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Robin black mini »

HI Ian...
All good advice above...

my thoughts are ..

If this would be your boys first " one off " performance,please be aware he WILL change..

A dog who has mated a female will very likely become more male dog agressive afterwards..more inclined to mark territory both indoors and out.

The schnauzer groups themselves are so different in character that even the breed clubs regard them as different breeds..
So I ask,what is the purpose of crossing a mini with a standard?. For sure this will not improve the breed per se.
http://pets.thenest.com/behavioral-diff ... -5782.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Breeders have worked for more than a century to refine lines so they have the preferred height / wt stats..correct temperament etc...so by crossing two size groups ,with completely different purpose and temperaments,you would be undoing years of careful breeding and breed refinement..if you are intent to breed the male ,why not look for a st female..and do the health testing prior...this casual cross will undo the years of hard work of many reputable kennels before you.

The female mini may very well be compromised and have difficulty carrying to term larger sized pups. Who will pay for the c section this little girl may well need?

Health testing.....dogs may well "look healthy "but there are tests to be done prior to mating dogs...pra tests for both dogs...brucellosis test to be sure your dog won't get an std..and any pups from the mating should be tested for hereditary catAracts.

Responsibility as a stud owner( and you would become one). You are equally responsible for the pups welfare for the lifetime of these pups,...can you help rehome a returned pup etc?

It is flattering to be approached by people who admire your dog..but please think hard before you use him as a stud...you have a moral responsibility to have him health tested and assessed to see if he is a worthy example to pass on his genes.
Finally,can you live with the changes that using him at stud will bring into your day to day relationship with your boy?
Please think this through.
andr3wc
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by andr3wc »

Breeding can be really exciting, but I would strongly advise against this.

These are two different breeds, and the hybrid result would be a mongrel. While many folks don't mind rescuing such dogs, I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy them as pups for any amount of money. How would your breeder sell them? Would she be honest about the mixed parentage?

Is there a chance those pups would be bred, further weakening the breed standard? There are too many Mini's as it is which are too tall.

If there is no honest financial incentive for this breeder, and the result would not help the breed quality, I can't see any merit in it.
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Dawnspell
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Dawnspell »

I have read that crossing a mini poodle with a standard poodle isn't desirable and isn't the true moyen/klien sized poodle that people try to sell it for. The bone structure is all wrong. Poodles are classed as one breed in 3 sizes not 3 different breeds as in schnauzers, so if it doesn't work for them its not going to be a good result for schnauzers.
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Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
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Robin black mini
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Robin black mini »

Dawnspell wrote:I have read that crossing a mini poodle with a standard poodle isn't desirable and isn't the true moyen/klien sized poodle that people try to sell it for. The bone structure is all wrong. Poodles are classed as one breed in 3 sizes not 3 different breeds as in schnauzers, so if it doesn't work for them its not going to be a good result for schnauzers.
Poodle are in four sizes..toy,dwarf,medium and standard..but essentially they are all the same breed with size being the essential factor that divides the groups..it is said a good toy on photo will be identical in dimensions to a correct standard..
The Moyen poodle( around 20 inches at the shoulder) is a small standard..preferred by some who find the upper end size of st poodles too heavy to lift etc,.
Some tried to create this Moyen size by breeding st with medium poodles but the dogs were out of proportion..the true moyens come from breeding together the small end size st poodles ..
The schnauzer is a different situation..the three sizes are bred from different breed origins..they have different work ethics and have been refined to become three separate breeds.
Jmwalker04
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First Name: Jim

Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Jmwalker04 »

Hi All,
New to the forum but would welcome some more advice / thoughts on this topic;

We are looking to purchase a black Standard-Miniature cross pup in the next few weeks; both parents are health checked and certified - the Bitch is a standard and the Dog/Stud is a miniature (good on him! 😭).. both parents are pedigree dogs, health checked and KC registered.

The puppies are now 5 weeks old, also come chipped etc - but I havent found anything other than this thread on the topic / implications of crossing the two breeds of Schnauzer.

I would appreciate any further thoughts around the potential implications of cross breeding these two types of schnauzer....

Thanks
Jim
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zeta1454
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is a: P/S Mini Bitch
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by zeta1454 »

Welcome to the Forum, Jim :)

Your post does raise a few questions for sure!

Did you have a particular reason for not wanting to get a pedigree miniature schnauzer or pedigree standard schnauzer?

Have you met the parent dogs and the breeder?

If this litter has been advertised on an online selling site or on social media, have you independently verified the information you have been given?

I ask the last two questions as there are many scams going on in puppy selling currently from advertising non existent pups to those who have been stolen and those who are simply random cross breeds being sold as a particular cross. If the parent dogs are, as you say in your post, registered on the Kennel Club website and have been health tested for relevant conditions, this information can be checked along with other facts on the website, using the registered Kennel names of the parent dogs.
You can use the link below to check these out and click on the dog’s name when it goes through to find out more information;

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search ... ts-finder/

I assume the mating was a mistake and, if it was between two young, fit, healthy dogs, there may not be any unusual health implications. The puppies will not be able to be registered on the Kennel Club breed register as the parent dogs are two separate breeds. If both parents are black, I would be very concerned to check out with the breeder the circumstances of the breeding as black standard schnauzers are very rare and no-one reputable would plan to cross breed them, and even black minis are uncommon.

Personally I would always look to source a puppy from a breeder I have researched and found ahead of time and, if need be, had my name on a breeder’s waiting list and I would not ever use online selling sites or adverts on social media etc. The risks are far greater of health or temperament issues in the puppies or of unintentionally contributing to poor breeding practices, puppy farming etc. as many dealers in puppies are clever at disguising the origins of the pups they sell.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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Jmwalker04
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First Name: Jim

Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Jmwalker04 »

Thanks for the reply Zeta;

We have been looking for around 9 months now and this is the only litter we have found that is a reasonable distance from us... I guess the whole covid pandemic thing has sent the puppy market absolutely bananas as the prices are also shocking!

We haven't met the breeders but we have had video calls with them - my wife has also done a good job of "stalking" the breeder/owner on facebook so they are indeed real people!

"I assume the mating was a mistake and, if it was between two young, fit, healthy dogs, there may not be any unusual health implications. The puppies will not be able to be registered on the Kennel Club breed register as the parent dogs are two separate breeds. If both parents are black, I would be very concerned to check out with the breeder the circumstances of the breeding as black standard schnauzers are very rare and no-one reputable would plan to cross breed them, and even black minis are uncommon."


That's also good to know - The bitch is a standard and is S&P, the stud was a miniature and is black........


My main concern like I say is health concerns of the pups so maybe there isnt too much to worry about from that perspective?

Jim
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zeta1454
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Born: 15 Mar 2012
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Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by zeta1454 »

I can’t think of any specific physical health issues from a standard / miniature schnauzer cross as many of the hereditary health issues are breed specific and the genes are unlikely to be duplicated on both sides if they are different breeds.

My only concern would be that you are confident about the integrity of the breeder and the welfare of the pups in general. A good breeder will be offering a Contract of Sale with the pups; a commitment to support with advice the new puppy families throughout the lifetime of the dog whenever needed; will have raised the pups to be self confident and used to a range of household sights and sounds as well as hopefully some different people / animals and started crate training and house training. Although these can all be started by the new family, if the pups have not had a range of experiences in the early weeks it can affect their confidence, the ease with which a new family can establish house training and how well the pup responds to training generally. It is much more of a challenge taking on a puppy that is not raised well, and in some pups from very poor circumstances can be more of a mental/ emotional health issue.

If you are happy with what you have seen and heard from the breeders to date, I would try to arrange a home visit before you commit to pay anything, in order to see the pups with Mum (and Dad) and make a firm decision then :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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Sprosser89
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First Name: Sarah

Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Sprosser89 »

Hi Jim,

I think I have been looking at a pup from the same litter. Have you decided to Go ahead? I’d love to know as I also have the same worries.

Sarah
Jmwalker04
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Re: crossing miniature and standard schnauzers

Post by Jmwalker04 »

Hi Zeta
Thanks for the reply and the insight - much appreciated 👍

Hi Sarah,
It may well be the same litter; we don’t have any concerns about the breeder; my concern was with the pups health and genetics which I can’t see as being an issue if the parents are pedigree and healthy
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