One very happy Schnauzer but should we get a second...?

[mikegoodson1]

Hi Tim,

I'm really keen to know how Monty gets on with Elliot and how long it takes him to accept his new pal.

I'm expecting to be in the same position as you by mid-November and so want to know how to best deal with the situation.

Hopefully Monty will settle soon.

Thanks.

[Robin black mini]

Mike ..if you are going to add a female pup there will be no comparison...chalk and cheese...you will have other issues along the line,but I am convinced it won't be for lack of compatibility...rather the opposite LOLOL.

[TimDoyle]

So we (and Monty) are gradually getting to know Elliot. Its not been easy and Monty is having a hard time accepting Elliot's arrival into his space.

We think there a few things going on here: Monty is far from "dominant" and he appears to dislike Elliot when he tries to play but won't go to the point of establishing himself as the dominant male. Hence Elliot thinks he can jump on Monty whenever and wherever he likes. We think that this situation is improving but we're probably too close to see any real changes. Elliot just wants to play but he's quite rough and "aggressive". Not badly and it seems very much in a playful way but we've also have the odd barring of teeth and snapping when he doesn't get his way...young pups have to learn!

Anyway here's a picture of the young lad looking like butter wouldn't melt....there's some more on the pup pictures part of the forum

[mikegoodson1]

What a lovely picture

[TimDoyle]

Well we’re two weeks in to our two schnauzer world and I have to say we’re struggling a little. The main issues we’ve experienced so far:

1. Monty does not accept Elliot at all, in any way shape or form. He clearly doesn’t like some things that Elliot does but he won’t impose his view or try to moderate Elliot’s behaviour even when Elliot is clearly stepping beyond what is acceptable. I’m not saying that Monty should be teaching Elliot but I did expect Monty to stand his own ground and not let Elliot dominate him. Monty’s reaction is just to growl and walk away and Elliot then seems to think he can do what he likes - at dog level if that makes sense. I guess what I’m trying to say is Elliot is dominating Monty, if not physically, then physiologically if that’s possible.
2. Elliot is quite agreesive at time (see point 1 above!) and this comes across as snappy, bitting behaviour that is beyond just teething.
3. Toilet training is just not working at the moment. So many accidents in his crate and around the house despite frequent trips outside, lots of praise when he does his business and no punishment when he gets it wrong.

Any thoughts or advice would really be appreciated!

[Robin black mini]

Monty sounds such a gentle boy that it's going to be up to you to step in whenever Elliott oversteps montys comfort line...this can be as simple as putting up a safety gate on your kitchen door so you can swiftly remove the pup when needed....
I would not let him ambush Monty as this can become a habit that will soon wear thin with Monty and he could retaliate by switching off from the pup ..my dominant girl Robin had the habit of ragging my gentle poodle boy at doorways or stairs and we still help him out by verbally making Robin wait so the big boy can safely go downstairs etc...in the beginning we held her back,and as she learned commands we use the wait command...even at three,we still make her wait,to let him go safely on stairs..
When I saw your pup I saw " he has the eye" ,that direct look of an assertive pup.....we know this well.you will have a smashing dog but must lay down clear rules from the start with him..
Things will get a lot better when the pup gets walking.in the meantime work on setting boundaries,don't insist they play together,but encourage what positive moments they do have.always step up to support Monty.i would feed separately until they are both calm with each other,or continue to separate when alone or feeding etc..
I think if you do this you should have some order within three months..if this escalates you may have further issues ahead when adolescence hits around 8 months.

[zeta1454]

Elliott is a good looking puppy but, as Jo says, you need to be setting boundaries and routines that will help to train him how to behave around people, other dogs and Monty.

Monty, by growling and walking away, is behaving well in the face of a boisterous pup. If a puppy is getting too bitey or boisterous with a person, by going away and not engaging with them, this is one way of letting them know their behaviour is not acceptable. When puppies are growing up they often nip or rough house with their siblings and, if this gets too much, the other puppy (or their Mum) will make a sound (squeal or growl) and go away from them. You would not want Monty to be aggressive or confrontational with Elliott - the puppy needs to learn that his boisterous behaviour is going to mean he does not get to play and may be sending away his big "brother" when he really wants to engage with him.

Is Elliott getting enough rest/sleep time as being over tired is a sure reason for biting, and other over the top behaviours in puppies. At a young age they need about two hours rest to one hour activity during the day. When you are not directly engaged with Elliott, he should be in a playpen or crate so he does not annoy Monty or get into trouble around the house.

Routines are key to training puppies - if you have not already done so, have a timetable of when Elliott gets up, when he has his meals, regular toilet breaks (hourly if possible until he is reliable) regular rest times, and regular training sessions. Training your puppy in short sessions will tire him, improve the bond between you, and start the process of him learning good behaviour in a variety of situations. You can also take him out and about in your arms or a puppy carrier (and definitely should be doing this) to socialise him and again help to tire him so he is ready to rest at home.

Toilet training does vary between individual pups and will also depend on what house training was done at the breeder's home before you picked up Elliott. However, even if nothing was previously done, you can help him to understand where he needs to go and when by taking him for regular toilet breaks (on lead if need be) in the garden until he is confident that this is where he should go. These toilet breaks are not for play so, if he is distracted, he may not go which is why I suggest using the lead. Taking Elliott to places in the garden where Monty has previously been may help as dogs frequently like to leave their mark where others have done before. There is also a possibility within the house that Elliott- if he is a more assertive personality- is actually staking his claim by pee-ing there and you need to be vigilant to prevent this becoming a habit. Never leave him unattended in a room unless in his crate or playpen and watch for any sign that he may be about to pee when he is out in the house.

As Jo says do not force the issue with Monty - as Elliott learns to behave better it is quite likely that Monty will warm to him more so just give him time and space to get used to his new little brother


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TimDoyle]

Hi Jo and Leigh

Many thanks for your very helpful comments and suggestions. We are and will continue to preserve as we know that in a few short months these initial problems will be behind us.

Tim

[carolinh]

Hope they're settling together. It did take Daisy a week or so to mellow, but they're great now...and they just kept getting better for months!
Caroline

[TimDoyle]

Update One Month Later:

Well we seem to have the puppy from hell, the devil on four legs! We are just not progressing with house training at all...Elliot messes his crate at will (so much for them not soiling their sleeping area), he is completely irregular despite us being like clockwork with feeding times (3 per day); he will sometimes poo twice, sometimes four times per day and never to any pattern after eating, after play, after walking/exercise - the only constant is our frustration, and of course the washing machine!

Monty just hates him, simple as that...he won't stay in the same room. There has been some more aggressive play(?) in recent days but it mainly comprises Monty fending off the snappy, biting pup.

The play issues with Monty I'm sure we'll get through but the continual messing in the crate and in the house is driving us mad...

Does anybody have any thoughts or suggestions on what we are doing wrong and what we can do to modify his behaviour?

Thanks!

Tim

[Robin black mini]

I don't think you have the puppy from hell...you have a male ,feisty pup and an existing omega male in the household.Be aware,this dynamic could even persist for their life together..
Hopefully they will get along,but this is why I always advocate a mixed sex pairing..
Given the situation this will take time and perseverance on your part..are you sure you are convinced to continue? If not phone the breeder ,tell him what's going on..you may be able to return the pup and put your name on a female from a future litter.....personally I would seriously consider this option and put your older boy first...IMO you need a female,( ducks for cover)..,

If you want to go ahead....I would go back to basics..
I would abandon the crate....some pups hate them.....things don't always go to plan....
.(first night home Robin ( 8 wks)went ballistic in a crate,shoulder barged the door for hours,before I took her out and let her stay with us on my bed...she never soiled,asked to go out thereafter and was such a contented ,easy keeper since we heeded her needs).
I will add my dogs do sleep on our bed( just two) but I chose to try the crate as she was so tiny I feared she may fall,off bed.l.in reality,she never left my side and sleeps in same place three years on...I digress...
I would keep elliots containment to a safety gate in the kitchen,with pups bed,food etc in there..this way the two dogs contact can reestablished through the safety gate.
Re house training ..the pup may well be a late learner...my Swedish import male arrived at four month s and he took a month before he was really house trained..ie by five months.

How are they on walks together? If good,continue establishing this. routine,and only allow playtime under supervision .. As they accept each other,allow more chilling time ( under close watch) until you are sure that it's working out on both sides.

[zeta1454]

Hi Tim - sorry to hear that things have not really progressed with Elliott.
One of the difficulties with getting a second dog can be the inevitable comparison with the first and, if the first was easy to train / gentle / sociable etc. and the second is not, it can be frustrating and seem that the newcomer is totally out of control. It is hard to step back mentally from making any comparison with your Monty but initially try to put out of your mind the differences between them. Elliott is clearly going to be a challenge and you will need to try and understand what is going on with him and why he is so unpredictable from your description.

Setting aside the relationship between Monty and Elliott which may still improve once Elliott is behaving in a more mature way, the house training issue does sound frustrating and maybe trying to find out why he is messing in his crate and the house could help to suggest how to deal with it. The irregular timing and number of poos per day could be due to the food (?) in that he may be having too much or there may be something he is sensitive to and his digestion is not coping well and is therefore irregular. When you take him out to toilet (after play / eating etc.) do you make sure that he is not just wandering or playing but does actually pee or poo? Use a lead and wait to take him indoors until he has performed if he is not taking the opportunity to go outside when he should.

Regarding messing the crate / sleeping area, generally speaking puppies do have a built-in instinct to move away from their bed to toilet even before their eyes open. However, much will depend on the opportunities they are given as they grow to have a separate toilet area in their puppy pen / whelping box at the breeder's home. If puppies are raised, for example, in a large pen or box with sawdust or newspaper and no differentiation between one part and the other, puppies may lose the sense of a special area to toilet and just go anywhere. Providing a litter box, puppy pads or similar in the puppy pen at the breeder's home can reinforce their instincts to toilet away from their bed and, if they have been given the opportunity to go outside before they leave the breeder, this will also be really helpful and will usually mean a puppy will respond better to house training in their new home. It could be worth discussing with Elliott 's breeder the issues you are experiencing with him to see if they can shed some light or offer more specific advice from their knowledge of him before he left ( toilet training / interactions with his siblings and other family dogs etc).

However, there can always be one puppy out of a litter that does not respond to early training as well as his siblings and maybe that is the case with Elliott. Some male dogs can also be dominant and territorial with other male dogs and age need not be the deciding factor in that a young male puppy coming into adolescence may think he wants to assert himself as regards his "brother" and may "scent mark" by peeing or pooing in the house on furnishings or in areas to say "this is mine".

I do feel for you in your frustration and have experienced similar feelings of despair with some pups who have taken a long time to be reliable in house training or who actually seem not to care if they do soil in the house. First and foremost, try to reduce your expectations/ comparisons with Monty as, I know from experience how hard it is not to get frustrated when a dog seems so different (worse?) than another in the family but it is never helpful. If the house training is the most trying of Elliott's behaviours, concentrate on this: look at the amounts of food and the type of food he is eating in case this is part of the problem; continue to take Elliott out to toilet as you have been doing on the regular schedule and make sure he knows this is for a pee/poo and not just for a play. Keep a specific note of times he goes (if you are not already doing this) just in case there is a pattern of some kind- does he poo at different times/ more often when he has had a different type of food for example. During the day, try to ensure that he is never left unsupervised in the house and watched for any sign that he needs to poo - usually sniffing / circling movements. I know you said that he will poo in his crate but at least by confining him to a playpen or crate when you cannot watch him, you will avoid him pooing in other areas of the house.

He is still young and I know of one dog trainer who has owned many dogs over the years and she says that she does not expect reliability in house training until a year old. Personally I would have hoped that a puppy would be house trained by at least six months if not before but just to explain that there can be individual variations for a range of different reasons. Good luck and don't despair - I am sure you will get through this challenging time.

[Donald]

I once looked after a horrible Patterdale puppy which belonged to a patient where I work. Long story but his owner actively sabotaged all attempts to train it.

I'd had enough (The little sod barked all night when crated - if left alone my dogs would have ended his life so he had to be crated). The day he climbed up on a shelf and took a dump in a printer 2 metres above the floor was the day I decided I no longer cared whether he lived or died...

[doughboy]

We too have been considering a 2nd dog (another mini, of course). Hugo is approaching 2 years old and is an intact male. Temperament wise, he is a gentle dog but he will sometimes get a bit aggressive when he meets other dogs, only very very occasionally but it still happens. Probably put this down to him being intact? Anyway, our experience with Hugo has been amazing (our first dog) and we would like a 2nd (salt 'n' pepper this time) for our benefit, as well as providing company for Hugo. I'm not willing to have him neutered, so a female is probably out of the question. Which leaves us with the option of getting another male (who would also be left intact) and hoping that he would also be a joy to train/have as Hugo has been.

Reading the replies on this thread has got me thinking though, what if we too end up with a character who is difficult to train and more importantly, won't get along with Hugo?!

[mikegoodson1]

I just thought I would reply to this although it will be interesting to hear from Tim to see how Monty and Elliot are doing now.

I introduced a 2nd miniature Schnauzer puppy into our happy home in November, Oscar (neutered) was just over two at that stage, then Sasha joined us. The first day we brought Sasha home, Oscar sort of growled at her and she hid behind the sofa but we encouraged them both to be around one another, without forcing the issue. The first couple of weeks I am sure Oscar was irritated by her but either he realised she was staying or she mellowed a little (I doubt that) but after 3-4 weeks they really bonded. They love one another now.

If they are separated for any reason, they both look for one another. At the dog groomers Oscar was upset when he could not see her so they were groomed together on tables next to one another. Oscar looks out for her and she looks out for him. I'm sure like human brothers and sisters, Oscar gets irritated by her now and again but they sort it out.

It's so lovely to see them play together in the house and when out walking - I have no doubts at all now that we made the right decision (looking at my earlier posts I was really concerned about this). I'm not being smug but I definitely feel that introducing a different sex dog into the environment helped. But who knows, if we had introduced another boy dog things may well have turned out ok too.

I guess the only 'mistake' we made was assuming that because Sasha was related to Oscar (same Mum/Dad from a litter two years apart) that she would have a similar temperament but how wrong we were. I guess like humans everyone is different right? Where as Oscar is calm/mellow and listens to instruction, Sasha is some mad dervish/free-spirited girl that is a little more of a challenge but still beautiful for it.

It was the best decision we made getting Sasha but I appreciate we were lucky (when you hear other stories) and that my story is not totally relevant to your question with regard intact males - I'm sure more experienced owners than me can advise.

Here are Sasha and Oscar last week:



Cheers.