Determining the color of newborns

[Abigail]

We are so blessed with a litter of 8 miniature schnauzers. It is our first (and only) litter. I was wondering if some of you can help me determine the colors of the puppies. I have googled and googled but am still not sure. They all have black pads and noses except puppy 3.
They are one week old today.
Puppy 1: Black all over, white chin
Puppy 2: Black with brown glow, white diamond on chest
Puppy 3: Brown all over (salt and pepper? or liver/tan?) brown pads and nose
Puppy 4: Brown socks, white bum
Puppy 5: Black all over, white chin
Puppy 6: Black all over, white nails, white chest
Puppy 7: Black all over, white stripe down chest, front paws very white
Puppy 8: Black with brown glow, white streak on chest, white paw

Mom and dad:


Picture of the brown glow vs all black


The odd one out in the litter


And "socks"

[zeta1454]

Hi Abigail - you should not need to be searching online or via the Forum regarding the colouring of your litter. If you have planned a mating responsibly you will know the colours of parents /grandparents etc. and therefore should have a good idea of what to expect regarding colouring of the offspring

I suspect that you may be using this post to advertise your litter (apologies if that is not the case) but, in any event, you should just wait until the puppies mature more and their colouring will be more evident.

[Al T]

Bit harsh!??

[Robin black mini]

Bit harsh!??

Really?...I thought zeta was remarkably restrained..
The harsh reality is people breed their pet dogs,the " just one litter" syndrome...no health testing and cute puppy pics to engage potential buyers..

The parents are clearly pet quality dogs..yes ,I use the word breeder as once you have bred even one litter ,you are a breeder..
As a breeder you should choose partners who are to breed standard..these parents are not to standard..very cute,but not to standard.
Health tested parents are a must ...not just health checked..there is a big difference. No mention of health testing for parents or pups..
The correct board for this post should be a sales board..the pups are clearly numbered by sex and colours as if to sell...
If the breeder doesn't know their future colours ,God help the buyer if they have future health issues..
I could continue,but that would be "harsh"...
I am sure the breeder will either protest loudly or not reply..but if they really want to learn and grow they should stick around and perhaps get the litter tested at least for hereditary cataracts,which should be done before sale of these pups
...I am currently helping a lady whose first pup was blind at one year old, and she has struggled with this dog until her passing at 12 years...to find a new pup who has been tested for eye issues..( parents and pups)
The harsh reality is living with a casually bred pup who most likely is a Russian roulette in the probability of inheriting genetic health issues which could have been screened for.

We are privileged to have zeta here..she shoulders the difficult posts..she stands by her principles and should be supported,not criticized.

[Al T]

Just thought it was harsh is all ....Seems to me KC breeders think they rule the world & have the god given right above everyone else to breed dogs because they're squeaky clean so to speak...do they get it right? I'm sure they don't in a heck of a lot of cases. What about other breeds? German Shepherds / Cavalier King Charles / Bulldog breeds / Pugs / ...need I say more? Or would that be deemed 'harsh'. And when they're questioned all you get is one big cover up.

Did these KC reg breeders not start somewhere; did they know it all from the start? Sounds like it!

We've one KC registered mini out of 3 whom we love to bits but it's clearly too highly strung & has the poorest temperament of them all! (I'm thinking 'inbred' probably)! And it was double the price of the others.

Also seemed a bit hypocritical that the lady was accused of using the forum to advertise the puppies when Zeta, whom I genuinely & sincerely agree we are lucky to have, has a direct link to her web page offering pups for sale! Maybe I'm in the wrong but just appeared a bit hypocritical?

It could in that case also appear that the critique was commercially based?

If I'm wrong I sincerely apologise, but, this is an open forum I believe, that is 'open to opinion'?

Nice to see a conflict of opinion though; healthy for us all...

[zeta1454]

Hi Al - happy to have a variety of opinions on the Forum of course and no offence taken re your comments

Just to clarify a couple of points though:

I have in the past been, I believe, very helpful to serious novice breeders who have asked questions - - including regarding colour of the puppies as in trying to clarify if their litter had black & silver or pepper and salt pups. As you say, everyone starting out is going to have to acquire experience and knowledge in many aspects of dog breeding. However, I feel that dog breeding is a privilege and a responsibility which anyone deciding to embark on this, even for one litter, should research seriously and choose the parent dogs carefully. It is not just a question of understanding the health issues of breeds and the best ways to raise confident puppies but also knowing that you have the ability to carefully and responsibly judge the best possible new families for the puppies when the time comes. All new breeders to my mind should be looking to an experienced mentor to guide them through at least the first breeding venture and not casually breeding a litter and then using social media to guide them.

The reason I had my reservations about the OP was that there was a distinct similarity with another post recently; the question of colouring is a bizarre one considering that there are a small range of colours in miniature schnauzers and, as I said in my post, the best way to judge the likely colouring will be by knowing the ancestry of the puppies and the colours of parents and grandparents. I have seen many similar odd posts on other social media where people with a litter to sell have posted photos of all the pups attached to a seemingly innocuous but curious query with the actual intention of advertising freely to a wide audience their pups for sale.

Regarding the link to my website, it is not a link to puppies for sale as you will see if you browse the site. We have never used it to advertise our litters as we have not needed to, having so few litters (a maximum of 2 in a year and none at all this year). We have always had more enquiries via the KC or private recommendations than we have pups available and we are very selective about potential homes for our pups so screen out a number before drawing up a waiting list of potential families for when we have a litter. The website is designed to give information on the breeds of dog in our family and historical photos of some of our past litters as well as information regarding how we raise puppies and health and nutrition information. On the first page, I also state that we no longer breed miniature schnauzers (our 3 minis are all neutered) and our last litter of Affenpinschers was in June 2016 when we had 2 puppies both of which we kept (so none were sold).

I will always try to help anyone who is seriously thinking of breeding or who has had a litter if they appear to genuinely want to know about anything relevant regardless of whether they are Kennel Club registered as my priority would always be the welfare of the dam and puppies. Questions of colour randomly posted with photos of a litter did not quite seem to ring true to me but I did qualify my suspicion with an apology if I had been "harsh" in my reservation

[Al T]

Very well put & explained Zeta, sincerely.

I think the issue arose from our difference of interpretation regarding the OP; your's arose suspicion, mine, rightly or wrongly was interpreted differently in that I considered it a genuine post from a caring dog owner that had decided, maybe naively, to have a one off breeding experience, whom was genuinely asking for assistance.

My angle is (& I'm open to & would welcome being educated otherwise), that 'in a perfect world' so to speak we'd have no negative inherent illnesses or personality traits; in animals or humans, & anyone that bred without justifiable research they'd be punished, but that's just never going to be the case. Blimey; I bet 99% of us wouldn't be here!

Never was it my intention to stir things up & provoke anger or offend; apologies if I've done so with anyone.

Anyway, thanks sincerely Zeta for the way you've replied...

Regards

Al

PS: Is it a myth that some of the healthiest dogs around are mongrels?

[Abigail]

Wow. I did not expect this. I did not expect as a mature woman to be so hurt by the comments here. So many assumptions, judgements and condemnation for having puppies...

I feel I have to defend myself. I think I am just going to skip that to protect myself. I do want to explain something.

I am not UK based but on a different continent. So I am not selling here. I shared the puppy info because I was so excited and proud and was hoping to share the joy but unfortunately I am not a professional breeder. On this forum that seems to equate to being irresponsible and being shunned.

All the best.

[Abigail]

I would like to remove my pictures. There is no edit button in my OP. Can someone, maybe a moderator do it for me?

[mikegoodson1]

Hi Abigail,

I'm pleased you edited your first message of today because at least now that explains your position. If you read all the replies, some were a little judgemental and others were a little more supportive - and these are just the people that responded. I am sure there were many more readers that read your original post without feeling one way or another.

People have opinions and sometimes these can hurt but only you know your situation and how the litter came about so stay positive - I genuinely believe that no one on this forum sets out to discredit or hurt anyone - like I said, they are opinions.

And as Clint Eastwood famously said in a 70s Dirty Harry film: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one"...

Mike

[Robin black mini]

And as Clint Eastwood famously said in a 70s Dirty Harry film: "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one"...

Mike

And he also said.." Make my day"
....I hope you make my day and tell me this litter was from health tested parents and are going to be tested for hereditary cataracts too..

[mikegoodson1]

I agree 100% Jo - at the end of the day we are all Schnauzer owners that love the breed and have their best interests/welfare and care at heart.

So hopefully Abigail ensured that the parents of the litter were all tested and clear, so too the puppies.

[zeta1454]

Hi Abigail, I am sorry if you feel hurt by comments made on your topic but I am sure that you will understand that these were made by those who are passionate about dogs and schnauzers in particular and care deeply that anyone making the huge decision to bring a litter of puppies into this world has fully thought through and researched this beforehand. It really does not matter whether you are having one litter with your pets or planning on starting a line of pedigree dogs with health and fitness as the priority,

The invaluable "Book of the Bitch" for anyone who owns a female dog states:

"Whether you mean to take only one litter from a pet bitch, or indeed if you have a litter thrust upon you by an accidental mating.....you must understand the reproductive process in the bitch in detail" and " If you are determined to breed a litter, for whatever purpose, resolve that this will be the healthiest and best socialised litter ever to be offered as companion animals."

The breeding process is exactly the same for a one-off or accidental mating as it is for a breeder that has chosen to develop their own breeding line of pedigree dogs - "professional" and "non-professional" does not come into it. Any novice breeder who contemplates putting their pet bitch through the mating and whelping process should be looking for experienced knowledgeable advice and support before they plan the mating. This must, of course, as Jo says, involve the certainty that (in terms of mini schnauzers) the parent dogs have been DNA tested for MAC and eye screened for hereditary conditions (including some reassurance in the knowledge that there are no hereditary conditions recorded in their ancestry ) and that they are both fit and well in all other respects. So many puppies nowadays end up abandoned, sick or in shelters because of irresponsible breeding practices and those of us who love dogs are sickened and horrified by this whether it is a result of careless, random one-off litters or the organised (sometimes criminal) industrial scale breeding or commercial breeders for whom profit is more of a priority than welfare.

Hopefully you have done everything you can to ensure that your puppies will be, as quoted above, the healthiest and best socialised companion dogs they can be and you should have no reason to feel judged or condemned for having a litter of puppies. It can be difficult for people on a Forum such as this one, who know nothing about you at all, to try and interpret what was behind your first post simply from the curious question regarding colouring and the listed descriptions of your puppies. A lot more background information regarding your breeding would have helped us to understand your position although my response to your query remains the same - that knowledge of the parent and grandparent's colouring is your best guide to knowing the likely mature colouring of your pups.

[Lynnyloo]

One on the end one photo of pups feeding which looks brown then dark brown strip is a pepper and salt, what was the colour of sire and the sire parents and also the colour of dam and her parents ?
We have had a little and I know they are all pepper and salt due to doing our home work with all the blood lines