Experience with overly bonded pair

The Miniature Schnauzer is a smallest dog in the Schnauzer breed and originated in the mid-to-late 19th Century from Germany. The Miniature Schnauzer is a cross between the Standard Schnauzer and other smaller breeds such as the Poodle. A miniature Schnauzer is a spunky, but aloof dog who does things their own way. They tend to be good guard dogs without the tendency to bite.
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Mbright
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Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Mbright »

We have a 2 year old salt and pepper male who is neutered. We brought home a black female a month ago who is now 13 weeks.

All the research I did (both online and speaking to our trainer) about adding a second dog was focused on ensuring the success of the two dogs getting along. We introduced them on neutral ground, fed them separately, separate beds and toys, etc.

Well, one month in and I realised we have the totally opposite issue. They have become overly bonded, possibly too co dependent. The younger is more dependent on her older sibling. She gets all of her confidence from him and needs his reassurance constantly. He now plays the role of her bodyguard by chasing away dogs coming to say hi (not random dogs but dogs we know who are polite) and barking at strangers who come to say hi. Two behaviours he never showed before!

We are working with our trainer. She suggested we treat the issue like one would with two littermates - separate walks, socialisation outings without my older dog, separate training until she is mature.

Interestingly, she said she has never encountered this with an adult dog and puppy, only two puppies brought home together.

Has anyone experienced this? What has your experience been adding a second dog?
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Dawnspell »

I havent any experience with this but I do agree with your trainer to do everything separate, almost as though she is an only dog. I would also add to that to try and limit access to each other at home as well. You could start with baby gates so they are in separate rooms but can still see each other if being totally separate is not an option.
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Mbright
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Mbright »

Thanks! Yes, our trainer suggested that too which we have begun to enforce. Thankfully, my husband and I have separate home offices that we can keep one dog with us.

Our eldest is out for several hours a day on his group walks and one day a week at the local daycare. We're quite lucky that our dog walker has offered to organise puppy socials several times a week with another mini puppy plus her adult pom. We may consider doing a half day at the daycare on a day our adult isn't there.

I've also taken half days off throughout the next couple of months so I can have solo outings with her and meet friends and check out different environments. Eldest travels well and we have taken her on the train with him. But I'm hoping some solo trips will help too.

Crossing my fingers that this will build her confidence and create a healthier relationship.
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zeta1454
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by zeta1454 »

This is an interesting situation and I would agree with your trainer’s advice.

I think that this may be more to do with your puppy’s personality (as well as your older dog’s) and not down to anything you have done up to now. Although we have a lot of dogs so this is not exactly the same situation as yours but a few years ago we introduced a new affenpinscher girl puppy into the family and our two year old (also female) affenpinscher became very closely bonded with her, would accompany her out into the garden, sleep beside her on the sofa and play with her all the time. We had 9 other dogs at that time but none had ever been quite so bonded as these two. It was lovely to see them together. However, temperament-wise, the puppy was and still is a confident and outgoing dog much more so than the older girl who mothered her and bonded so closely. As the puppy matured, the protective mothering aspect of the relationship waned of itself and, as we did not walk the two of them out together anyway we didn’t encounter any issues such as you describe with other dogs /people although it is not uncommon for dogs to be more (protective?) reactive when walked together in my experience than when they are on their own even as adults.

I understand that you don’t want your older dog to be guarding the puppy in situations with other people and dogs but, at the same time, it may be premature to try and segregate the two of them completely as it is a natural expression between members of a family to be close and caring towards a young one and it is lovely that your older dog has taken on this role. Certainly avoid walking them together for now and do as much socialising and training with the puppy as you can to boost her self confidence so that as she matures she will not look to your older dog for support as it seems to me as though it is her lack of confidence that is a significant factor in what has happened between your two dogs.
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Mbright
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Mbright »

That's very interesting, Leigh.

I took her on two puppy socials (one organised by the daycare and one by my trainer) the 5 days since she completed her jabs. Luckily, she did not show any fear (eg. tail tucked, ears back, etc) but she was definitely very shy. For the first half she sat there observing and exploring around where the dogs were playing. She finally opened up to the dogs and interacted but definitely not as rambunctious as my eldest when he was the same age. I think you're right about the personality of both dogs playing here.

I think my main goal right now is to continue with the independent confidence building with the little one.
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Schnauzerluv »

If you are looking for other experiences, we also got a second pup girl mini when our boy was 1.5YO. They didn't overly bond, but our boy was sometimes bodyguard to our female. Didn't matter when she grew up, he still looked out for her. I didn't know how to address it back then (15 years ago) and it never posed any real issues, I just know he did protect her and protected her. I think he always had a bit of protector in him though, as he would bring out his toys one by one and put them in a pile when he was young.

Our 1st two minis have now passed and we got a male pup who actually just turned 1YO a couple days ago. We planned to get a female pup again when he's 1.5-2YO (depending on if we find one). One thing I learned with having a pup again is that YOU want to be the one to protect. My pup looks to me for everything. If he's scared or unsure, he looks to me for my reaction. I have no idea how it will go when we get our 2nd pup, but I plan to raise her the same and have her look to ME for protection/security and not my male pup.

I love the pic, we've been thinking hard about a 2nd pup in the nearish future and it's really really cute, warms my heart to see that.
Mbright
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by Mbright »

I'd like to provide an update. We've taken the advice of socialising the puppy independently. We spoke to our dog walker who agreed to help us by taking her out to meet the puppies she takes care of and balanced adult dogs. We took her to a half day at the local daycare during the afternoon as its more calm than the morning.

Yesterday, she took our puppy to do a short walk with the adult dogs including our eldest. It went so well! Eldest left her alone to meet the other dogs. I think the success is mainly due to her increased confidence and my eldest no longer feeling like he needs to protect her.

We also had to do some errands and took them to the city centre. A stranger approached us to chat about the dogs. Whilst we were speaking I gave me eldest treats for his calm behaviour. The stranger pet our puppy and the eldest was calm throughout.

We are over the moon on the progress and will continue with what we're doing.

In the photo, eldest is at the front and the puppy is in the back on the lead walking with the other schnauzer puppy.

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zeta1454
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Re: Experience with overly bonded pair

Post by zeta1454 »

Thank you for the update. That is wonderful news and so happy to hear that things are working out well :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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