What's OK and not OK in training methods?

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Sezza
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Sezza »

It's been very interesting reading through this thread.

Thank you to everyone who's commented as it's very helpful to all of us who seem to have toothsome puppies!

I have just changed training schools as my 5 month old puppy Gibbs was "disciplined" by the trainer at the first school. It was only the second week we had been and We had gone into the class - eventually after she had man-handled her GSD into another room as she "can't be around other dogs - she'll go for them"!" :-o

She then talked for about 45 minutes, demonstarted how to get a dog off the sofa by lifting my dog onto a chair and then pushing him off. He was getting a bit frustrated by then so when we went outside and did 1 walk up and down, I tried to do something with him and he must have nipped at my hand because she suddenly went "give me his lead. I see he keeps biting you". She then tried to make him do something and he nipped her! She grabbed the scruff of his neck and pinned him on the floor while he squealed his head off! When she let go he woudn't get up and when he did he just stood there shaking! :-\

I was in shock and didn't say anything at the time but decided afterwards that i was very uncomfortable with this and would not be going back

I am very cross. apart from anything else this has cost me a lot of money as I had paid up front for classes at school 1 and have now paid for more classes at school 2 :(


I think I've learned more from this thread tonight! :-o
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nessclair
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by nessclair »

Its all very difficult really- this training lark. I had the same problem, where I was unhappy with Monty being yanked about on a slip lead at his first class. I did go back this week and had a long talk with the instructor, and made it clear that I did not want that to happen. She used a touch on Monty's back end to get his attention this week, which I was much happier with. He is quite a responsive dog, and doesn't need what I saw as over correction. He was so subdued last week after the class, but much more his normal self this week. I'll continue going for the time being as I do want him to calm down around other dogs, but I don't want some one else deciding what is 'best' for him. There are conflicting views on neutering, harnesses etc, so I'll have to do my best to manage all that. Still, it was much more positive this week , and she reckons that most dogs progress from just observing (which Monty is doing at the moment with individual training) to being a part of the class in just a few weeks, which would be great. We had a really good level of support this week for only £3, so I would like it to work out. I have looked around for other classes too, but there isn't anywhere suitable, so another reason to try and make this work for us.
Ness and Monty (S/P mini born 21.9.10 rehomed with me 13.8.11)
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angieh
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by angieh »

Thanks everyone for your comments and replies - I did send the thread link to my OH and I have to say he didn't react as strongly as I had expected he might to comments that he needs to take a firmer hand with Monty. Of course, he did say that I should do the agility training from now on, but that's not possible as I can't run (have lung disease). Sometimes he takes criticism well and sometimes not ..... I have to be careful how I put things!

I quite understand folks who have little choice about going elsewhere convenient and I am encouraged to hear others say that after talking to their trainers, methods have been modified to suit better the dogs and owners. I think we will keep with our current agility trainer as she has understood OH's saying that he does not want Monty to be smacked. We'll see how things go on.
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hula-hoop
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by hula-hoop »

Sezza wrote:It's been very interesting reading through this thread.

Thank you to everyone who's commented as it's very helpful to all of us who seem to have toothsome puppies!

I have just changed training schools as my 5 month old puppy Gibbs was "disciplined" by the trainer at the first school. It was only the second week we had been and We had gone into the class - eventually after she had man-handled her GSD into another room as she "can't be around other dogs - she'll go for them"!" :-o

She then talked for about 45 minutes, demonstarted how to get a dog off the sofa by lifting my dog onto a chair and then pushing him off. He was getting a bit frustrated by then so when we went outside and did 1 walk up and down, I tried to do something with him and he must have nipped at my hand because she suddenly went "give me his lead. I see he keeps biting you". She then tried to make him do something and he nipped her! She grabbed the scruff of his neck and pinned him on the floor while he squealed his head off! When she let go he woudn't get up and when he did he just stood there shaking! :-\

I was in shock and didn't say anything at the time but decided afterwards that i was very uncomfortable with this and would not be going back

I am very cross. apart from anything else this has cost me a lot of money as I had paid up front for classes at school 1 and have now paid for more classes at school 2 :(


I think I've learned more from this thread tonight! :-o
Blimey!!! Im not surprised you changed classes! Didnt realise there were still professional trainers out and about that still go about things in such a physical punishment manner :-o
Stanley ratbag - s & p mini born 4/6/10
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Snazy »

I've just scanned through the posts but 2 things stand out for me

1. bite inhibition hasn't been taught well enough and i would go back to the start with that. your dog should understand that mouthing and biting is not acceptable under any situation (other then self defense)

2. you rely on the instructor to discipline your dog when that should be coming from the handler and an action plan should already be in place on how you want to deal with it
'Pedigree indicates what the animal should be
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be
But performance indicates what the animal is'


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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by zeta1454 »

I think it's always worth checking out training classes before enrolling on them as there is such a variation both in methods used and just the ability and experience of the trainers. Check out the APDT site and see if there are any in your area:
http://www.apdt.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but wherever you are going I would always recommend asking to attend one or two classes beforehand to observe how the class is run. If the trainers are not happy to allow this then I would not go as they should welcome new attendees and be proud of their training methods etc. and if not why not?
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


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montykins
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by montykins »

I've just read through all these posts and very good advice being given as
usual. I must say that if anyone hit one of my two dogs, being the nice
even tempered red head what I am, I'd probably get arrested by one of my
former colleagues for hitting them back on Dylan or Molly's behalve.

No need for physical violence at all, unless of course it's to stop a serious
situation, and this did not sound like that.

Hope thing continue to improve, let us know.
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Little Bear
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Little Bear »

[quote="angieh"]Yes, I agree with Leigh too - it's exactly how I feel. I really had to air the problem and ask in case I was being too "namby-pamby". I admit to being far firmer with Monty than OH is - I've scruffed him a few times but I don't hold him down forcefully like some methods I've seen, waiting for the dog to "submit". IMO that's bullying. I'd much prefer the water bottle and the massage techniques too. I've even tried lavender in the past as an aid to calmness.

There is nothing 'namby-pamby' about not using fear as a training method. I don't say this from a moral high horse, I used stones in a bottle, lead 'corrections', alpha rolls and a pet corrector on Little Bear when he was a youngster under the direction of a trainer who believed in the dominance rubbish and not only did it make me feel like an abuser (which if I'm honest, I was) it made him ten times worse. All of those methods are aversives and if what's causing your little one to mis-behave is fear then all it's teaching him is that you're scary too. If that's the case, he has nobody to trust.

Thank him for growling - dogs taught not to growl (usually by being told off) are the most dangerous because you get no early warning before a bite which after all is their only defence in our world. It's like taking the battery out of the smoke alarm.

It may be that until he matures a little and learns to control his impulses, agility is just over-stimulating for him. So perhaps another option might be fun obedience but one where the emphasis is on sociability and fun reward based training. It might also help him learn some self control.

Little Bear used to play bite too. The only way I found to stop it was to squeal really loudly and then leave the room. Once it stopped becoming rewarding for him he stopped. So when your OH tried to put on his lead and Monty bit, he may have been accidentally rewarded because he stopped the lead going on right away - that's proved to him that his technique of biting works. Associating the lead with something nice e.g. lead = chicken not just lead = loss of fun, can help him get over this with a little practice.

I got it wrong with Little Bear and it's taken a long time to get him to the point he's at now. He's not perfect by a long way, but what I do have is an incredible bond with my dog and even though he still gets frightened by things, he trusts me to sort it out, something he wouldn't do back in the dark days of water guns, shouting and bottles full of stones because back then, I suppose I was scary just like everything else.

Wishing you all the very best
The Little Bear Dog Blog - Living, Loving and Learning with a 'problem dog'
http://thelittlebeardogblog.wordpress.com/
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the valkyrie
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by the valkyrie »

This thread interested me too - I am afraid that Finnegan is a biter, I know he is only 10 weeks old
but I am wondering if I should be doing something to stop him now before he gets any older. He has
drawn blood several times and my arms and legs are covered in small wounds where he has nipped me.
I actually started using the water spray bottle yesterday as he kept biting the bottom of my leg
and after two or three sprays he stopped but I am keeping it handy. It is only a week since I thought he was dying
but once he recovered he became the devil puppy :ymdevil: . Is it just puppy high spirits or should I try to nip it the
bud. ?
Our darling Cassie-too born 11.1.2006 left us 1.6. 2012.
Miss you every day little girl xx
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Little Bear
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Little Bear »

That must be really upsetting for you. I remember crying in frustration when LB used to nip me. He didn't draw blood, but it still hurt a lot.

I was told that puppies don't know the power of their bite - it comes naturally to them and they have no idea of consequence at that age - if in fact dogs ever fully understand this concept.

The advice we used to give in puppy class was to squeal loudly every time a pup put teeth on skin, regardless of whether they mouthed or bit, then to walk away into another room. I did this with Lb and although it's tedious (I was up and down like a yo yo for a few evenings), it works. It gave him a consequence to his action (The thing he was having fun with was removed-me) but without frightening him. I suppose this works because it keeps him in a learning state of mind, something that gets lost when scared, therefore making it more difficult for him to learn how to control himself.

If youre worried though, its always worth getting a professional opinion.

Hope all goes well
:-)
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http://thelittlebeardogblog.wordpress.com/
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Little Bear
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Little Bear »

Ps - Little Bear was called Demon Pup for months too ;-)
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the valkyrie
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by the valkyrie »

Hi little bears mum, thank you for your reply. It made me feel there is light at the end of
the tunnel. I have tried the pained yell and walk away but not actually out of the room so will try that.
I've also tried saying NO in a very stern voice and putting my hand up, palm toward him, but he just
tries to jump up to bite the hand ! He is a real Jekkyl and Hyde character, he can be so loving one minute
and biting my nose when I cuddle him the next ~x( I cannot remember Cassie behaving like this but
I am sure we will get there in the end. I am off now to read your blog.
Our darling Cassie-too born 11.1.2006 left us 1.6. 2012.
Miss you every day little girl xx
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Caramomo »

Puppies use their mouths to play and investigate to biting/mouthing is completely normal BUT you do have to teach them to control their mouths as they do not grow out of it if left untaught. When pups play with each other they use their mouths all the time; biting, nipping and pulling on each other. If they bite too hard the other pup yells and will often wander off to find a less painful playmate. As such they learn that biting too hard and hurting the other player stops the game. If they bite mum too hard she will often give them a harsh sounding reprimand and move off, again biting = no more fun. They haven't finished learning this by the time they go to their new homes and this is where we come in. When puppy bites give some sound like a low, growly NO! like mum would or a high pitched painful yap like the other pups would and then be boring, stand up, cross your arms, look at the ceiling and ignore puppy or leave the room for a few seconds. The thing to bear in mind with the tree option is that they can then try and get you to play, get your attention and this can make them bite you whilst they are doing it, sometimes manically in frustration until they realise that biting doesn't get them any attention.

The main thing to remember is that whatever method you pick STICK TO IT. Puppies learn through repetition and consistency. It won't work first time, or even within the first few days. Persistent biters (read; stubborn sods!) can take a few weeks but take heart; they ARE learning and eventually, if you are consistent, they WILL get it and you will one day realise that the schizophrenic crocodile has gone and you have a lovely pup that plays nicely.
Cara and Mo, two black mini's and Molly a black & white Heinz 57 all served by Elaine, the cook, poop picker, and chief toy thrower.
I live by the Mini Schnauzer code; when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
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Little Bear
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by Little Bear »

the valkyrie wrote:Hi little bears mum, thank you for your reply. It made me feel there is light at the end of
the tunnel. I have tried the pained yell and walk away but not actually out of the room so will try that.
I've also tried saying NO in a very stern voice and putting my hand up, palm toward him, but he just
tries to jump up to bite the hand ! He is a real Jekkyl and Hyde character, he can be so loving one minute
and biting my nose when I cuddle him the next ~x( I cannot remember Cassie behaving like this but
I am sure we will get there in the end. I am off now to read your blog.
Little Bear was exactly the same, and only to me, everyone else got sweetie pie puppy which really seemed unfair! Lol
Great advice from Caramomo too. I think having puppies must be a bit like child birth, we're programmed to forget how stressful it can be! Lol.

There is light at the end of the tunnel! It is stressy but enjoy him too, puppyhood goes so fast and it's such a lovely time (biting aside of course! ;-))

Thanks for checking out the blog :-) Do you have any pictures of Finnegan you can post, just so I can have a puppy fix?

:-)
The Little Bear Dog Blog - Living, Loving and Learning with a 'problem dog'
http://thelittlebeardogblog.wordpress.com/
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Re: What's OK and not OK in training methods?

Post by kell »

[quote="helga"]if i never touched her just went OW but did not remove my hand if she went again to put teeth on me a low growl of YOU DArE and she stopped
I am amazed that this worked so quickly I think with Max he is getting better but not a complete change. I yelp and say NO and I never pull my hand away ( as a child I was told not to pull away as that would cause the tear in the skin.) He mouths me when I am grooming him and I maybe need to be more firm. He hasn't been groomed before and I am trying to keep it as a game - I think it is time I got tougher and diferentiate between grooming and play.
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