Suprelorin - Otto's experience

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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Oscar 12345 » 15 Jul 2019, 16:14

Thanks Alison, it is and has been challenging that's for sure. :D
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Schnauzer Sam » 30 Sep 2019, 16:43

How are things now with Otto, Julie?

I met a man over the weekend who has a JRT. He told me his dog had just had an implant and was surprised when I spoke about Suprelorin. This forum can certainly educate :)
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Oscar 12345
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Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
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is a: B/S Mini Dog
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Oscar 12345 » 01 Oct 2019, 15:58

Sam, I agree it is amazing what we can learn from users of these forums

It has been over 6 months now with the implant. No signs of the implant wearing off physically (testicle size being a key determinant). I am so pleased that we tried it out rather than going for permanent castration. The pros and cons are exactly the same as with permanent castration. I have a more nervy/sensitive/protective dog as his reactivity towards other dogs is fear related and on balance even though the amount of training we have done and we have both needed a lot of training (me more than Otto), has probably levelled it out I would say that it has made it worse. If you cannot or are not prepared to do the time consuming and sometimes personally exhausting training, being committed to alter pretty much everything about the way you walk your dog, then it would be a lot worse and permanent castration would have been a big mistake for us and even the implant would have been a big mistake in those circumstances. On the plus side, the focus is so much better along with recall etc. which has meant that the training works and sticks. Some of the not so desirable male behaviours have been reduced or eliminated so this is a plus as things like licking pee are a bit gross really. With the increased sensitivity comes a very loving dog who loves fuss and attention and puts you at the centre of his world. The reactivity is being managed, in a nutshell, Otto is scared of dogs and he is in the growl and lunge rather than flee camp. He does have some doggy pals (pal is too strong a word really but defined as a dog that he will not react badly to) but strange dogs are very frightening to him and we have had a conversation and I have told him that he doesn't have to meet any dogs if he doesn't want to ;) Been following some brilliant training and read some fantastic books, shelves are full of them now and now it is a matter of time and consistency. :D I am really looking forward to the implant wearing off now and hoping that with the return of some testosterone he will either remain as he is which is manageable now that I know him so well or he becomes a little more confident and relaxes around strange dogs a little more. Sorry rather a long post to answer your question, but I read so many posts about very reactive schnauzers that have been permanently castrated and the owners in real despair as to how to handle it or worse posts from people considering castration not knowing that things will probably get a lot worse. I do think in the future that I will probably look back at the training and learning here and think wow, I really did enjoy that. :-B :)
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Schnauzer Sam » 01 Oct 2019, 17:00

Thanks for the update. It'll be interesting to hear how he progresses when the implant wears off.
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by zeta1454 » 02 Oct 2019, 07:08

It has been really interesting following this thread. Thank you for sharing Otto's experience :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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Oscar 12345
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Born: 04 Jul 2017

Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Oscar 12345 » 28 Oct 2019, 17:23

Moving into the 8th month of the 6 month implant. Starting to see subtle signs that testosterone is coming back. Had to be licking pee didn't it along with improved sniffing techniques and less body shaking (calming signals).... I wonder if I can correct the licking pee now that it has just started (again) hmmm. Just wanted to log the first signs.
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.

Oscar 12345
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Posts: 1339
Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:28
First Name: Julie
Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 21 Dec 2002
Dog #2: Otto
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 04 Jul 2017

Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Oscar 12345 » 11 Dec 2019, 11:08

The final instalment.

Moving into the 10th month of the 6 month implant and Otto's testicles are re-inflating beautifully. I am absolutely over the moon with Otto's progress.
If I go back to the original list I put together:

Incessant marking/cocking leg. .................. he marks outside but not inside unknown houses but normally first wee is a very big one
Obsessive sniffing ........................... not as obsessive as it was but still loves a sniff
Licking pee .......................I thought this was starting again but simply put my foot over the smell and he doesn't do it now at all
Thrusting rear legs (kicking stones and grit all over me in the process) and grunting after toileting ................. still enjoys doing this
Pulling towards dogs that have just pee'd .................... still likes to do it and will wait until the dog has moved away
Pulling towards dogs generally ................ will walk past dogs as long as not too close, getting better and better at doing this. He will also make choices to cross the road if he sees more than 1 large dog coming towards him
Zoning out when spotting another dog ................much easier to get his attention and walks on with the command "keep going"
Adopting a prowling type stance when walking towards dogs ..................... rare unless too close
Territorial barking (own home and garden) ..................no change and still does not bark outside of the home territory
Behaviour with strangers ..................no problem outside, inside he is cautious and will bark but usually calmed with a snuffle mat
Behaviour with dogs ..................... most dogs of similar size he is ok with now and ignores after a a minute or so, unknown large dogs can still be scary and we don't allow greetings with unknown large dogs unless Otto's body language suggests that he is ok and he is calm. Some breeds he just doesn't like and we are narrowing them down to spaniels, cockerpoos, black labs and dogs that crouch like border collies.
Behaviour with children ...................ignores children now and walks past unless screaming and running in which case we "keep going" to get out of their way

Also added, behaviour with cats ...... can walk past any cat now without reacting
Body shaking .... far less now meaning he doesn't need to calm himself so much

Additionally, Otto is much calmer, more confident and actually surprises me every day where other dogs are concerned. The goal I set us was to be able to calmly walk past any dog. I think we are going to be able to achieve this now. I know that he will never be comfortable up and close to all dogs and that's fine, we just need to walk past them. From where we were in April which frankly was in quite a bit of despair and at times since thinking I am never going to be able to have normal walks we have come a long way. Now I love every walk, it's opportunity for more coaching more reinforcement.

To summarise, the implant has worked for us together with a significant amount of positive training and learning. Building Otto's confidence and making him feel invincible has been key. Could I have done this without the implant is a question I ask myself now that I know what sort of training is required. There are some things the implant have given me that I might not have got for a few years... there is no doubt that castration gives you a more loving/cuddly dog and that hasn't changed now the implant is wearing off but the negatives are not to be underestimated.

I now know first hand the results of castrating a fearful dog and I wouldn't ever recommend permanent castration in these circumstances. I am now delighted with the results of the temporary castration to aid the rehabilitation of a fearful dog but if I was put in the same position again I would exhaust proper training and behavioural change methods first.

Photo here of Otto and two of his friends.

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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by zeta1454 » 11 Dec 2019, 11:40

Thank you for sharing this journey Julie. It has been really interesting following Otto's progress and so pleased that things have improved so much :-)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Schnauzer Sam » 14 Dec 2019, 09:22

This has been an interesting read and, I'm sure, very informative for anyone who's thinking about behavioural consequences of having their male pup neutered.
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Dawnspell » 17 Dec 2019, 11:33

Very interesting. It is definitely something I would try rather than going straight for the op
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Re: Suprelorin - Otto's experience

Post by Oscar 12345 » 17 Dec 2019, 16:55

It is good to know that there is a temporary "let's see what it would be like" option.
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
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