Dominance

Barking, humping, aggression are covered here. If you have a behavioural issue, please raise it here. Whether it be good or bad.
donnarewald
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 22:22
Contact:

Dominance

Post by donnarewald »

Our now 4-1/2 year old MS we've had since a puppy, is giving us some worries. This is a bit lengthy so my apologies.
From what I've read he was a normal MS puppy with his puppy biting, hanging on to my pants when I tried walking, a handful to put it politely.
One of our order dogs, was not happy and very accepting of us bringing Jasper into the pack, it took a long time and there were still issues where she'd pounce on him and pretty much pin him down, growling and Jasper yiping like he was being killed. It got bad enough where I went for help to a trainer who looked at our dogs interacting, I thought our older dog was the problem, nope it was Jasper not respecting our other dogs boundaries, not paying attention to the dog signals being sent to him, pretty much being a brat to her! So our trainer kept Jasper for a week, worked with him, and when he came back we followed through or so I thought.
Last summer there was an incident with a person that traumatized Jasper by accidentally cutting his ear when she took it upon herself to take the hair off because she didn't approve of what our groomer had done. She took a layer of skin off his ear, he bit her, it hurt. Since then he's not been the same dog 100%. Our groomers have a terrible time grooming him and they're amazing girls, and said it's definitely due to what happened. But if Jasper doesn't like something we are doing to him, drying him off when coming in from outside, pick him up, wipe his face, he will growl and bite at same time, meaning no warning growl, he bites. Last night he was on the couch with our 8 year old granddaughter and I, she went to pet him, he snapped and bit her hand...not acceptable behavior.
So today I messaged the trainer, told her what I've just told you, she said he has always been a dominant dog, and needs to learn to become submissive instead. I need to either leash him to me or crate him, and make him "work" for absolutely everything for the next couple of weeks, and that he's not allowed on the furniture either because he thinks he owns it, that he owns the entire house and everyone in it.
So yes we have admittedly spoiled him, he's little, he's darn cute, but we don't treat him like a dog dog, we spoil all 3 of our dogs (Hershey chocolate lab 12, Laylah Labradoodle 11, the one that had problems with Jasper)
Part of me wonders if this is too strict? I did try to get Jasper to sit when he wanted to come up on to the couch today, he basically refused, lol, he would put his head on the couch standing in front of it instead, I pushed him back commanding him to sit, his ears were down he was in a submissive state just not wanting to do what I was telling him to! If I had a treat he would have plunked that bum down so fast!! So I guess she's not far off that Jasper thinks he owns me lol.
Just wondering others thoughts or experiences as when I was reading I'm seeing similar behavior but the dogs were pups still.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this! :)
User avatar
mikegoodson1
Member
Posts: 714
Joined: 31 Mar 2016, 11:52
First Name: Mike
Dog #1: Oscar
is a: Black Mini Dog
Born: 17 Oct 2015
Dog #2: Sasha
is a: B/S Mini Bitch
Born: 23 Sep 2017

Re: Dominance

Post by mikegoodson1 »

Hi,

I'm not a dog trainer/breeder or behaviourist just a dog owner like you, who doesn't treat his dogs as dogs per se but as extended family. Saying that, I have always laid down the law with them both (using positive reinforcement) and they know I am pack leader. They were both taken to puppy social classes from 3 months old to around 6 months old, every weekend. They have also both been through an obedience training program, not necessarily so they could attain certification/awards but so they became, as well as they could be, obedient dogs.

I also take Oscar to agility classes, this helps our bond. *I plan to take Sasha too when classes start again in the Spring.

The reason I am talking about what I have done is, did you do this too? Socialisation classes (even though you had a dog/s at home when you brought Jasper home)? Has Jasper attended obedience classes? Has he attended agility classes OR do you play with him too? All of these things help create that bond and for me, enforce that boundary that you are the pack leader, not them. You decide when you stop playing. You decide when they are fed. You decide when they can come onto the bed or the sofa, not them. I give my two a simple 'yes', that's our click word (so to speak) and they look to me for that confirmation before they are allowed on the sofa or bed.

It sounds like Jasper is a very strong personality and that he believes himself to be pack leader, he is in charge, not you. It's not for me to tell you what to do but if that was me in your boat, I would consider engaging with a dog behaviour expert (not just an obedience trainer) and look for guidance. At least that way, you have professional expertise that you can take forward.

I really don't mean to be rude and apologies if you have done all the right things right and you are still in this boat but the advice of a dog behaviourist still stands.

Good luck :ymhug:
Mike
Last edited by mikegoodson1 on 19 Feb 2019, 14:51, edited 2 times in total.
Oscar 12345
Member
Posts: 1592
Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:28
First Name: Julie
Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 21 Dec 2002
Dog #2: Otto
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 04 Jul 2017

Re: Dominance

Post by Oscar 12345 »

Hi, sounds like quite a lot is going on with Jasper. You ask "Part of me wonders if this is too strict?".... your dog has bitten an 8 year old child. :( If that was a stranger's child then there could have been some very serious consequences for Jasper. He is going to have to go through a transition which will be very confusing for him and consistency is key. Those boundaries like not getting on the furniture are really important, even when you think you have a transformed dog they remain important, I am convinced that "give an inch take a mile" was written by a mini schnauzer owner. You will get a much happier dog at the end if you stick to a regime that a good behaviourist recommends. One thing I would recommend, is that you can help your groomers and Jasper by daily getting him used to being on a grooming table and being touched and "inspected" and brushed etc. A little and often with some high value treats. If this would be new for you and him then just a few seconds at first and a wonderful reward if he tolerates it, keep building up and if you have a set back the next day repeat what you did prior to that set back. Dogs can get over trauma caused by poor grooming if handled sensitively, slowly and properly. It makes the whole experience for Jasper much nicer also. Grooming is a wonderful bonding activity and no better way to show you are the leader. I only have one dog so don't understand the complexities of handling your problems when you have other dogs, I do wish you the very best of luck but stick with it.
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.
User avatar
Schnauzer Sam
Member
Posts: 743
Joined: 28 Sep 2017, 20:40
First Name: Sam
Dog #1: Rosie
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 06 Jul 2017
Dog #2: Edie
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Guernsey

Re: Dominance

Post by Schnauzer Sam »

I think you need to go back to basics with Jasper. Get the high value treats out and start the training again, just you and him - don't include the other dogs, just to re-inforce that good behaviour gets rewarded. As Julie says, you will have set backs - it's not as easy to train an older dog but neither is it impossible.

I do have a query for you. Is Jasper insured? I have Petplan and I know they pay for a qualified animal behaviourist (not a trainer) to visit your house for half a day and give you an action plan. You must, however, be referred by your vet. If you don't have Petplan you should check with your insurers if they have a similar clause.

I do think this is something you need to sort out soon as the consequences could be serious for you and Jasper if he reacted in a similar way with a stranger.

Please let us know how you get on.
Country Girl at Heart (Molly) 8 April 2003 - 22 December 2018

You're never alone when you own a schnauzer

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Rosie-and-E ... 872588622/
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by zeta1454 »

I agree with the advice above that you need to get a professional behaviourist to assess Jasper rather than a trainer. Unfortunately there are many trainers who use outdated methods which can actually have a negative effect on a dog and make a difficult situation worse.

The "dominance" theory is a very dubious one and is also interpreted by some people to justify what is tantamount to abuse. It is not so long ago (and maybe still is the case in some places) when this theory was applied to raising children and how to keep a wife in her place! Family life and that includes families with dogs should not be based on an oppressive hierarchy. There are a few links here that explain on more detail:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... -dog-valid

https://apdt.com/resource-center/domina ... -training/

https://positively.com/dog-training/myt ... -debunked/

You are in a more challenging situation with an adult dog than with a puppy and are faced with issues which you know (the damage done by the person to Jasper's ear) and those you don't know such as what exactly happened to Jasper when the trainer took him away. Dogs (like people) can be very sensitive to negative / frightening experiences and fear can lead to aggression. The problem with any training that involves enforcing obedience by "dominance" is that it can mean an individual is only submissive as long as s/he feels weaker than the oppressor and can lead to a hostile challenge if the opportunity arises.

Obviously only the trainer and Jasper know what transpired during the week he was away from you but I do feel uneasy about the trainer's advice that he needs to learn to be "submissive". It may well be that he came as a puppy from an environment where he had missed out on good socialisation, gentle handling and plenty of positive dog -puppy interaction which will have put him at a disadvantage as regards his relationship with your older dogs. However, then as now, Jasper needs to learn the boundaries of good behaviour in a supportive, reward based family setting which hopefully you can be guided through by a first class professional behaviourist. There is a link here which may help you find someone in your area if you are unsure...but do check them out as well to be certain that you trust their approach:

https://www.apbc.org.uk

While you are still working on Jasper's issues, be very vigilant to ensure that situations such as that with your grandchild cannot happen - have Jasper in another room or in a crate or playpen. It is not a question of punishing him so give him a tasty chew or similar to keep him happy but you need to keep children safe until Jasper is 100% reliable with them (following the advice of the behaviourist).
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
donnarewald
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 22:22
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by donnarewald »

Thank you for all your advice I truly appreciate your input. I absolutely find Jasper's bite unacceptable behavior no matter why he did it, what I meant by too strict (wrong word perhaps) is "wearing him". I have no problem going back to square one and being retrained which is more me than him of course, I'm still home with him all day. Jasper did go to puppy classes as well as socialized consistently with people and dogs over the years, there's never been any issue when it comes to people, family included, until last summers ordeal happened. As I mentioned, since then he has changed, however saying that, he's always been a strong willed, dog towards, as the trainer reiterated to me yesterday. We have not taken him to agility classes either. We do have a cottage we spend most of the summer at, our dogs are in heaven there and all 3 love to run and swim, they're non stop until evening.
When she spoke of being submissive, she was referring to his body language, ears and tail down, not up and looking alert, which is his "dominant" body language. I have to admit we are lazy dog owners and treat our pets like pie family, they have Rin of the house etc no firm boundaries so I can easily see why Jasper and even Laylah would be easily confused by who is really the leader here, me or you, ok I chose me being Jasper! Also we are really bad for consistency, so it's our fault Jasper has the issues he does.
I have the notes from when Jasper was with our trainer, she's also extremely knowledgeable in dog behavior, I honestly have a lot of faith in her, I just do question him being tethered to me when I'm up and about doing things all day long, I need to research that. I did search to see if there is an actual dog behaviorist in our area and there is not, we are rural in a small town, but not finished my search yet. She came extremely highly recommended to me as well by our groomers.
My personal challenge is honestly understanding exactly what I am to do and how to do it properly so I'm effectively getting my message to Jasper across without confusing him when I already am lol! I'm 63 so the brain is not as young as it used to be I'm afraid! Unfortunately the trainer is booked up until April, so I need to figure this all out on my own and from her notes. I'm going to look into obedience classes for older dogs though, and not one where you are just throwing treats continuously at them!

I'm not going to lie this is very overwhelming for me and I so want us to do right for Jasper's sake, we love him so much, we just need to get sorted out.

Again my sincere thanks and I've absolutely not been offended in any way shape or form, we know we've fallen very short of being clear pack leaders, and unfortunately Jasper has been the one to suffer.

We do not have pet insurance only because we've heard nothing but terrible reviews from other dog owners on that they say they're cover certain things, then don't, that's the only reason. I should point out that we are also in Canada and not the UK, you're the only Schnauzer form I could find as well.
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by zeta1454 »

Have you raised your concerns about Jasper with your vet? The two primary reasons why a dog bites are pain and fear. Unless you have had Jasper checked at the vet, there is a possibility he has a health issue that is causing pain even though you may be unaware he has a problem...it may even be a brain / mental issue. If he does not have a health issue, you really need to look at what has happened to Jasper to encourage this willingness to bite which is not normal and there is no reason why a dog who is part of a family would do this any more than a family member would start punching other family members every time they don't like something.
A dog that has his ears and tail up, looking alert is a happy dog, a dog with its ears and tail down are afraid, suffering and not happy. Anyone who thinks it is a good idea for a dog to be going around with tail and ears down and in a state of "submission" is not a good trainer but someone using outdated and unacceptable methods. There is absolutely no reason why a dog should not be happy and part of the family - we have eleven dogs ranging from a year old to nearly 12 years old and all are part of our family - come on the sofa with us, and with some of them sleep on the bed and are happy and not aggressive.

I am really sorry that you are going through this and especially if you are far from any quality behaviour professionals but please be very careful about following notes or guidance from someone who is using "dominance" techniques.It is something which has a huge risk of making an issue much worse. Please have a look at the links I posted above which explain this in more detail. This is a quote from one of them:

"Dogs that use aggression to “get what they want” are not displaying dominance, but rather anxiety-based behaviors, which will only increase if they are faced with verbal and/or physical threats from their human owners. Basing one’s interaction with their dog on dominance is harmful to the dog-human relationship and leads to further stress, anxiety and aggression from the dog, as well as fear and antipathy of the owner."

Do take Jasper to the vet to ensure he does not have a health issue, first. Do research online regarding reward based / positive training methods. Check out Jane Killion's book "When Pigs Fly" which is a general guide to dealing with all kinds of issues with challenging dogs and has plenty of useful information on keeping a good relationship with your dog while encouraging the behaviour you want.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly- ... 1929242441

Good luck and do not think you are bad "pack leaders" :-)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
donnarewald
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 22:22
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by donnarewald »

Thanks so very much your reply! Last summer when this person injured Jasper it was between grooming appts. When I took him to his appt approximately 3 weeks later, he would have nothing to do with grooming, he was extremely aggressive towards our groomers totally out of character for him. He's never really likes his feet done, but in the past they were able to still do them. They had to stop grooming him midway, and he had also bit her. My groomer suggested we take him to the vet since this was so out of character for him which we did and there was nothing physically wrong with him. When I explained to both vet and groomers what had happened to Jasper prior, they both said he's been traumatized. As I said in my original post, he's not been 100% the same dog since last summer. When we try to dry him off when coming in from rain or snow, he will sometimes grumble and even growl. He also tore back a dew claws beginning of winter, we had to muzzle him because he wouldn't allow us or vet to touch, understandably, he was in quite a bit of a pain of course.

What I've decided to do after reading comments, is just go back to training, because I do see that he thinks he is the boss over me! I will tell him to sit and he stands there and almost staring me down lol! If I have a treat as I've said no problem the bum plunks right down! I'm not allowing him on to the furniture without sitting first then ME telling him "ok".
I'm not going to even consider this submissive vs dominance I'm very confused honestly. I've copied and pasted her thoughts and suggestions here, I will try to add to my original post or will make a new one if unable.

From the trainer, I had been asking questions so these are answers...

"Whatever to reason for his aggression towards people it needs to be addressed ASAP as will definitely get worse in my opinion. Jasper has always been a dominant dog, when dominance is not consistently blocked it almost always leads to aggression. Unfortunately I am fully booked until mid April at this point but could bring him in for board and train sometime after that. In the meantime it is imperative that you change how you deal with him on a daily basis, he should be crated or on leash at all times (punishment or not, he bit your granddaughter!!) I would also recommend getting a muzzle for him to remove his “power” he needs to fully understand that biting people is not okay with you. Baskerville muzzles are my brand of preference. You should limit his freedom in the house, no access to furniture or any other privileges that he is used to. Is also hard this time of year to properly exercise him I know but a tired dog is less likely to display aggression. Making excuses for his behaviour is not going to help him get better. These were not isolated incidents, this is now a pattern of aggression. I would be happy to meet with you to discuss this further but unfortunately my schedule is not very flexible right now due to my current caseload. So would most likely be at least a few weeks before we could schedule an appointment. Bottom line is you need to be a more assertive leader with him, in all interactions with him. If you change he will change.

The best I can explain it is Jasper should be on a work for everything program, he should not get any resources (food, affection/attention) unless he is in a submissive state, look for lower body posture with ears and tail in a lowered position. It may look a little like crouching or cowering at first as is not a familiar state of mind for him. Use leash corrections to change his posture from dominant to submissive.

Wearing a muzzle may also accomplish this.
The Baskerville muzzle just allows him to pant and drink normally, but I would use what you have for now. Sit is fine down is better, most important is submissive so if he is still excited or dominant in a sit or down you need to correct or wait it out, google dog body language to give you a visual reference, reading is fine but think videos of dogs submissive vs dominant would be more beneficial to you.

Is rare to see Jasper submissive from what I remember, tail and ears are always held high.

(I had asked why he shouldn't be allowed on furniture)..Because then he owns it, he basically owns your whole house and everyone in it so when he decides he is done with being touched or petted he bites. When food is spoiled it’s rotten, when dogs are spoiled wellllll.
I would not allow him any free run of the house right now, on leash or crate only."

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
User avatar
mikegoodson1
Member
Posts: 714
Joined: 31 Mar 2016, 11:52
First Name: Mike
Dog #1: Oscar
is a: Black Mini Dog
Born: 17 Oct 2015
Dog #2: Sasha
is a: B/S Mini Bitch
Born: 23 Sep 2017

Re: Dominance

Post by mikegoodson1 »

More experienced owners will offer you better constructive observations but for me (as an owner of two Schnauzers now and a mixed breed dog when I was in my teens), I don't agree with this approach at all.

This person is basically advising you to scare your dog half to death before you feed it or play with it or give it affection - this feels like it's straight out of the 'Cesar Millan' school of looking after a dog - this isn't what we practise here, which is reward based training.

I really understand your predicament as described in your other post but I just don't feel that the advice you are getting from this person is the best for you and Jasper and especially for the well-being of both of you going forward.
donnarewald
Puppy
Posts: 8
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 22:22
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by donnarewald »

Thank you I couldn’t agree more, he’s truly a lovely boy, and I refuse to take down his personality and scare him into becoming a dog robot. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for a dog behaving and following rules, which we’ve greatly failed in, but I want him happy at the same time, which is what his ears up and looking up at me mean, NOT, I’m being dominating and am trying to overpower you!
I took a photo of Jasper sitting at my feet with his ears as they ALWAYS are, perked up and he’s looking at me....to test the trainer I sent her the photo and said “is jasper looking dominant to you? She replied “More dominant than submissive I would say, submissive is more relaxed, he looks ready to go!” I hope I uploaded the photo ok
Image

I will continue what I’m doing in positive and reward training, Jasper just needs to remember who is the leader/boss and what the rules/boundaries are
User avatar
mikegoodson1
Member
Posts: 714
Joined: 31 Mar 2016, 11:52
First Name: Mike
Dog #1: Oscar
is a: Black Mini Dog
Born: 17 Oct 2015
Dog #2: Sasha
is a: B/S Mini Bitch
Born: 23 Sep 2017

Re: Dominance

Post by mikegoodson1 »

Wow! I know I keep saying "I'm not an expert" but maybe I need to get myself off to the States to start up an obedience school :) because looking at this picture, Jasper is looking at 'Mum' in a Schnauzer way. It's not aggressive or dominant, he is looking at you as if to say 'What next Mum'. So where the trainer is getting that he looks 'dominant' is beyond me. And listen, I'm truly not trying to do the trainer down or give you more headaches.

I would say continue on your path, the right path of positive reinforcement. As long as you are clear with Jasper he will get it.

A good example I use is when we first had Oscar at 8 weeks old, I used to say to him "can you sit down please" and he would look at me a little puzzled, when this was changed to "sit", he would sit down happily and get his reward. *Now he is bigger/older and knows what is what, I have added in the "can you sit down please" - a tip learnt from Tom Ryan from his 'Following Atticus' book - talk to your dogs nicely.....anyway, I digress.

My point is that Jasper needs to know what to do. Another example is that my voice is quite soft :-( but when I am cross with Oscar or Sasha, I have to develop a 'James Earl Jones' deeper voice, to change my tone to tell them off, so they know that I am unhappy with them. Again, I don't punish them but if they do not do what I have asked, they don't get the reward which is either a treat or some playtime with me.

I know you may have heard this a lot but our dogs need direction, they need to trust us, that we will look after them (feed them/keep them warm/make sure they are healthy) and Jasper needs that direction from you and it sounds to me like you want to give him that direction. He is an adorable little dog and I promise you, this good path you choose, will reap rewards, you may have days where you feel like you are taking two steps back but that's Schnauzers for you :D

Good luck, we are here for you :)

*Just a footnote to this as I have just thought of it. Not all trainers over in the UK are cracking either. I really struggled to find an obedience trainer that was 'breed aware' and not just used to training Border Collies, which is very popular here. Just because the trainers Border Collie could do 18 tricks, they expected your puppy to be able to do them too and expected our dogs to all learn the same way :( I would have loved to have found a more 'Schnauzer' friendly trainer who understood the breed better.
Oscar 12345
Member
Posts: 1592
Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:28
First Name: Julie
Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 21 Dec 2002
Dog #2: Otto
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 04 Jul 2017

Re: Dominance

Post by Oscar 12345 »

He looks a lovely normal boy and good for you for taking on the training journey with him. I look forward to hearing Jasper's progress and I have a good feeling that you are going to get some excellent results... :)
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.
User avatar
Riesen16
Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 04 Jun 2016, 12:54
First Name: Gillian
Dog #1: Enya von Amber
is a: P/S Giant Bitch
Born: 30 Sep 2015
Location: Switzerland

Re: Dominance

Post by Riesen16 »

Dominance is often a word used when the owner is lacking in leadership.
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by zeta1454 »

It is absolutely the case that too many trainers (in the UK and elsewhere) fail to recognise different breed characteristics. Pastoral breeds , working breeds and gun dogs who have been bred over the decades or centuries to follow human commands or guidance will be much more amenable to "obedience" type training which is why these are the dogs most often seen in obedience competitions and displays too. Terrier type breeds who were bred to hunt and kill rats for example have a totally different mind set. They have to think for themselves, outwit an intelligent rodent and react in a split second to changing conditions - this type of dog and that includes miniature schnauzers are not "hard wired" to follow human instruction and their training must make allowances for this. Positive reward based training is used now by the police and military to train dogs - the advantage of this method is that it will work with all types of dog (although it may take more patience and hard work with some) and does not run the risk of traumatising a sensitive dog or lead to abuse of a more feisty dog.

If Jasper has been traumatised by the incident where his ear was damaged, it suggests to me that there is an underlying trauma that has been triggered again by this event and reinforced his fear of being restrained, held or touched in certain ways. From reading the advice of the trainer you quoted, I would have real concerns as to what happened to Jasper when he was taken away from you as a puppy for the week. Negative experiences especially in a young puppy can have a lasting impression and if the kind of treatment recommended by the trainer was carried out on Jasper when he was just a baby effectively, it could be that the pain and damage to his ear by the temporary groomer re-awakened what happened to him before. This is, of course, speculative but, in my long experience with dogs, I know that those who have suffered a nick or cut in the ear while being groomed or their nails cut too short and bleeding, may have an understandable anxiety about being touched in those places on another occasion but none have been 'traumatised' to the extent that they develop such a phobia of grooming that they cannot cope with it at all or that they become aggressive in other contexts as a result. If Jasper has been so badly traumatised by that event, it really does suggest something else has happened at some time which resurfaced and reinforced his distrust and fear.

I think you are doing the right thing by continuing with positive reward based training and definitely do not allow anyone to take Jasper away for training so you have no idea what is being done to him.

Going back to your original issue with Jasper being a "brat" around the older dogs, this is not unusual and may be worse in a puppy that has not had prior experience with older dogs other than his/her mother, but it is a situation which can be managed within the family. We have an older dog that really does not like puppies - we know this is the case and there is no reason to my mind why he has to like them so we make sure that he has his own safe space to be whenever we have a puppy, he can be in a different room or on a height where the puppy cannot reach or the puppy can be in a playpen for periods when our oldie is pottering around. Puppies mature and stop being little mischief makers and then the issue is resolved naturally.

If Jasper is fine 99% of the time, it may be that this issue will be readily resolved by management (make sure that he is in a safe place when children visit) and by building up the bond between you and Jasper so he feels safe and confident with you. A dog that reacts as you describe sounds to me to be anxious, feeling unsafe and lacking in confidence in particular circumstances such as the groomers, vets, and being handled. You can revisit the training which you did when Jasper was a puppy but also play with him, do fun games and organise enjoyable sessions for him that challenge his mind and are a great distraction. You can buy puzzles for dogs of all kinds from the Nina Ottosson range:

https://www.nina-ottosson.com

to Buster activity mats

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buster-Activit ... B014OAYVKG

where treats are hidden for him to sniff out and find....and/or you can set up kibble trails in your garden and hide treats under flowerpots or in boxes for Jasper to search and find. It may be that your anxiety about this biting issue (understandable of course) is affecting Jasper too. You need to get him to feel he can have fun, that you love him and that he can trust you to be there for him. Mental trauma from whatever cause is never going to be helped or healed by oppressing or punishing the sufferer.

Try to incorporate gentle regular touching of every part of Jasper in your daily routines, not all in one go but every so often throughout the day when you are both settled and do so calmly and gently and reward him for allowing the touch. You need to get him to the point where you can even touch him on his ears and paws without him reacting aggressively. This is going to take time and patience on your part and it may be that groomers and vet visits will be an issue for a very long time and a soft muzzle may be needed in the meantime only on those occasions to protect the professionals from being bitten.

I am sure that you will get there with Jasper. Remember that he is totally dependent on you for his food and shelter so you are in control of the resources in the house and he already knows that. Maybe start worrying that he is taking over the house and everyone in it when he gets his own credit card and shops for himself. Take care of him and don't let anyone take him away for "training" - he needs you to be his advocate and guide, to teach him what is expected within the household but also to recognise his fears and help him through them.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
User avatar
zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Dominance

Post by zeta1454 »

Actually thinking about this some more, while you are working on getting Jasper to relax and allow touching and handling without anxiety / biting / growling, I would try to avoid unnecessary grooming and vet visits. Repeating stressful situations until he is more accepting of being handled may hinder his progress so, as long he remains well, he should not need a vet examination and, if you can do general work on keeping his coat free of tangles and maybe invest in some clippers to just keep his jacket neat, you can avoid having to take him to the groomers for a while. His appearance is going to be less significant than his behaviour so don't worry if he doesn't look quite as spruce as normal.

Grooming at home can be done over a period of time, a little each day if need be which will be less stressful for Jasper and can help him to become used to the handling and be part of the bonding / trust building process for both of you :-)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
Post Reply