Suprelorin - Otto's experience

[Oscar 12345]

Ah, forgot to mention, the zoomies have returned. He hasn't had one of those for many months but we get one a day at the moment.

[Schnauzer Sam]

Good to read of the progress. It's something I have no experience of and I'm always interested to learn.

[zeta1454]

Thank you for sharing these updates.

Re the food, although you may need to reduce the amount, we have found with our neutered boys that, while they are still getting the same amount of exercise, they have continued to have the same quantity of food. With one of the affen boys, castrated four years ago, I have actually had to increase it slightly! I think the recommendation re food after neutering (male and female) may be due to some dogs either not wanting to or not being given the opportunity to exercise as much as they get older or, possibly, due to a number of dogs being neutered at a young age when they are on a higher intake as they are still puppies and therefore would need a reduction anyway as they matured. This is just me speculating and there is bound to be individual variation but I wouldn't automatically feel Otto's food needs to be reduced unless he does start gaining weight

[Oscar 12345]

Thanks Leigh, good advice.

[Oscar 12345]

Just over the 4 week mark now and there are definitely some behavioural changes which do mirror what I hear about medical castration in male dogs. Otto has become "softer" in his nature. More cuddles, more and more getting on the sofa to lie next to me whilst we was content to lie on the floor before. More attentive which makes training easier, almost as if the on switched has been turned down a little. We are still ignoring larger unknown dogs because he is still reactive but I think I have noticed that his staring and stance is not as hard and he is easier to pull away. Still puffs out his chest and wants to dominate his smaller doggie friends (if boys). I haven't noticed any increase in nervousness (yet). Testicles definitely getting a little smaller. So, to my original list, here is the update.

Incessant marking/cocking leg. .................. less now, seems to do one big pee and then a few little ones
Obsessive sniffing ........................... much less obsessive
Licking pee ....................... not seen him do this for a week
Thrusting rear legs (kicking stones and grit all over me in the process) and grunting after toileting ................. less now but still there
Pulling towards dogs that have just pee'd .................... still wants to do this
Pulling towards dogs generally ................ a little less I think
Zoning out when spotting another dog ................less hard staring and zoning out and easier to get his attention
Adopting a prowling type stance when walking towards dogs ..................... still does this
Territorial barking (own home and garden) ...................no change
Behaviour with strangers .................. no change
Behaviour with dogs .....................not fully tested yet but there have been a few positive signs
Behaviour with children ...................seems more relaxed but not fully tested so still assumed to be the same

[zeta1454]

Thank you for the update Julie. This is an interesting one to follow

[Oscar 12345]

We are just over the 6 week mark now and have experienced a number of ups and downs. One minute I think there has been no change and the next noticing a subtle change. In the last few days however, I have noticed a significant change which I would summarise as an improved ability to keep Otto calm when he first sees another dog and following a satisfactory introduction to a strange dog then his interest in that dog wanes very quickly. I have become more relaxed because he is more relaxed which makes me more relaxed etc. etc. etc. I have also found that I will set him up for a failure if I allow him to say hello to a dog whilst he is either pulling or not calm, an introduction with a loose lead is absolutely essential The testosterone was definitely getting in the way of getting him in a calm state. This is still very early days with the implant and I hope we are going to continue on an upward trend. People have been really kind allowing me to talk to them from a distance and then letting a calm Otto slowly walk up to their dogs with lovely results. Sometimes with a large dog he decides that he is ok where he is and will calmly stand a few yards away - now that is what I call success! It is still a challenge if a large dog situation arises suddenly or it can't be managed. So in a nutshell the implant appears to have been the right thing for Otto but for anyone going down this route the training to accompany it is vital. He shows no increased nervousness at all. I should have between 8-12 months to really socialise and let Otto have fun with other dogs and schnauzer walks are in the diary. I am hoping that that will be long enough and I just can let the implant wear off. Here's my formal update at 6 weeks which is when the implant should be in full effect:

Incessant marking/cocking leg. .................. still marks but normally first wee is a very big one
Obsessive sniffing ........................... not obsessive now but still loves a sniff
Licking pee .......................does not do this at all now
Thrusting rear legs (kicking stones and grit all over me in the process) and grunting after toileting ................. still does this
Pulling towards dogs that have just pee'd .................... less now
Pulling towards dogs generally ................ a little less and easier to calm with a gentle pull back
Zoning out when spotting another dog ................less hard staring and zoning out and easier to get his attention
Adopting a prowling type stance when walking towards dogs ..................... hasn't done this for a while
Territorial barking (own home and garden) ...................no change
Behaviour with strangers .................. no change
Behaviour with dogs .....................ability to get him calm and manage the situation is much improved
Behaviour with children ...................no change

[zeta1454]

Thank you for the update.
It makes me laugh reading about the "thrusting rear legs" as several of our dogs do this including the affen girls! It is a question of standing well back until they have finished the ritual although I have been caught out occasionally by a sudden desire on their part to enjoy it all over again

[Oscar 12345]

I get grit in my shoes/boots and have to continue with an uncomfortable walk for the rest of the way....

[Oscar 12345]

Tomorrow will be 8 weeks since the implant and things have been quite up and down which I assume is hormones settling. There is definitely an improvement with other dogs which I am assuming will continue to improve along with the continued training. As an example today, 2 brown labs, 1 large cross and 1 terrier 2 off leash all in his direction and not a murmur, just a quick sniff and on to something else. Yesterday however I took him in to a shop and on the way out a spaniel crossed our path and he lunged so up and down really. My observation is that if a walk starts off calmly then that's a good sign that Otto will remain relaxed (as long as I stay relaxed). If he starts anxious then he is going to be more reactive. So if not calm he doesn't get to meet any dogs however tempting it is for me to "try this one". Calmness is absolutely vital. Sometimes he seems to just walk out of the door in an anxious state hence me thinking that maybe hormones are still not quite settled yet.... Prior to implant I would describe his behaviour as always hyper and very difficult to get calm. I have also observed that he is much more likely to look to me more when outside for guidance/reassurance and at times not care about what else is around him at all. So today at one point he picked up a stick and just marched right past another dog without even a side glance. Never done that before. He is more cuddly and seems to understand and listen much more (this could be to do with maturing also of course) but he does seem to get more anxious outside if I for example separate from him and my OH. There also seems to be less jumping back if someone reaches out to give him a pat on the head, when someone has asked whether they can pat him I am just about to say he probably won't let you and he just stays there and lets them. I don't know whether these varying reactive behaviours are also seen in the first couple of months post medical castration. I assume they are?? I won't put the list up again yet as it is much the same. Interesting journey...

[Schnauzer Sam]

Julie,

Do you find the location a factor?

We have a short path from the front door to the gate, about 10m, and I find that if someone passes just as we leave the front door or get to the gate then Edie will kick off. If we manage to get up the street before seeing anyone then all is OK.

[Oscar 12345]

Rather than location it could well be a smell that suddenly makes him anxious. He likes to have a pee right outside our garden so then that will cause other dogs to go there etc. There are some paths that he will not willingly walk down and I have thought that is because of the smell. He will just take one step on to it and then look at me. More often than not I will just let him follow his instinct unless I really need to go down there and in that case a gentle pull and a few steps into it and then he is ok. Very strange. I have always called schnauzers complex, and I do think they are a highly strung breed though and highly sensitive to stuff and they have an incredible sense of smell which invokes lots of sensations. It is interesting though, he never ever barks outside (excluding the garden which for him is inside).

[zeta1454]

With our dogs, even laid back Magic, they do get very agitated if someone (especially with a dog) passes close by our driveway as they are leaving the house. One of our affens is equally furious if they dare to cross the entrance when we are coming back from a walk and will watch to make sure they go right away from our garden
I am sure this is a territorial / protective reaction to the home area and, even those of our dogs (male and female) who are not usually reactive will do this.

The scent link could well be right as we humans have no idea how dogs with their super-power scent detection respond or interpret smells that are undetectable to us. The other thing which I have noticed with our mini schnauzers especially is they are not keen on spaniel type dogs particularly the springer spaniels who tend to be quite hyper or at least those in our village are! Any dogs that move fast, erratically or don't seem to be under the control of whoever is with them can be a problem and I can understand why that could unsettle a dog that is on lead and may feel vulnerable.

Sounds as though you are getting on well though Julie and doing all the right things to keep Otto on track with the training

[Oscar 12345]

Update - over 3 months since implant. In terms of physical changes:

Testicles much smaller but not disappeared
Hair feels softer particularly around the neck (he is stripped)
He has put on weight, even though I have reduced his food intake but treating on walks as gone up so I need to balance this

As for behavioural changes:

Incessant marking/cocking leg. .................. still marks but normally first wee is a very big one
Obsessive sniffing ........................... not obsessive now in that he is not inhaling grass but still loves a sniff
Licking pee .......................Stopped completely.
Thrusting rear legs (kicking stones and grit all over me in the process) and grunting after toileting ................. still enjoys doing this
Pulling towards dogs that have just pee'd .................... still likes to do it
Pulling towards dogs generally ................ will always come away now with a "this way" unless too close
Zoning out when spotting another dog ................easy to get his attention, distract by throwing down a treat
Adopting a prowling type stance when walking towards dogs ..................... almost stopped
Territorial barking (own home and garden) ...................think this has got worse
Behaviour with strangers ..................only jumpy if someone rushes over with hand over his head
Behaviour with dogs .....................manageable now and he will willingly ignore dogs if they are big or in pairs, will happily walk by the side of a dog when calm (if a dog approaches face on and they meet nose to nose without being calm there is no change and he will be very uncomfortable)
Behaviour with children ...................much better and unless they are running towards him screaming he ignores them

Also much more loving, cuddly and attentive.

We now have the help of a really good trainer/behaviourist who has and has had many miniature schnauzer and owner clients and who seems to know the breed well. We are going on to have socialisation walks with her dog and a few others who are also in rehab. I think this is what we need now and I am hopeful that when Otto gets his testosterone back that his confidence will also return and with this training and socialisation that I will have a happier dog where other dogs are concerned. I have stopped worrying about the fact that Otto doesn't play around with other dogs, actually that isn't important to me any more, what is important is that we can just walk around passing dogs, meeting those I know he is ok with and ignoring the rest.

So what is my conclusion? There has been a huge amount of learning on my part and I have had to change considerably in the way that I walk Otto. I have realised that he is incredibly sensitive to how I am feeling and my emotions, if I am anxious you can bet he will be. I don't know whether I would have got to the same point without the Suprelorin implant to be honest but my gut feel is that he has been easier to work with since having it. There is no doubt that some things did get a little worse in the early days in that he became a bit more jumpy with things he didn't bother about before but the training has helped build back confidence. At this point I am glad that I did not go down the permanent castration route but obviously it will be interesting to see what change if any I get when the implant wears off.

I will do another review when I sense the implant is wearing off to record what happens to his behaviour.

[Dawnspell]

Very interesting Julie. Give yourself a gold star and a pat on the back, its your commitment that's helping him the most. Hes a lucky boy