Ran into a hurdle with Ozzy

[Schnauzerluv]

Hi folks, Ozzy will be 15 weeks old tomorrow and advancing nicely. But to make my post short, he is still pretty nervous and uncomfortable around other dogs.

We started puppy classes last week. This was the first time he saw another dog. He was hiding and barking at first, but calmed down near the end of class, but still not so into the other pups in the class.

Since then he's met maybe 20 or so people, a few dogs, but I won't bore with details unless asked.

So we did our second class last evening. He was much more relaxed and not barking this time. But still I could tell he was nervous around the other dogs.

He met the golden retriever pup at the entrance as we were taking a potty break outside because I got there early and I was just getting him used to the store again. I was talking to the owner as they approached and the GR went up to Ozzy to say hello. He was scared, I lost the leash and he ran back inside. Once I collected him, we proceeded outside and went for a short walk away from the GR and other dogs.

Once returning to the store, since other pups had arrived at the back of the store where training classes take place. We had to walk through all the pups and not engage bc I could tell he was uncomfortable, stiffening and stranding real straight if the pups came up to him, so we just took a seat away from them.

During class he was making friends on his own accord with a sweet hound pup 1/2 his size. He even got into play bow mode a few times. He also made friends with a tiny yorkie pup and seemed pretty relaxed.

After class I went to buy him some bones and stuff to chew, and we were greeted by poodle type pup about his size. This poodle was very happy, playing with every dog in class. She was even pinning the yorkie pup down (completely on top) and the yorkie was happily submitting on his back, no problems. But I think the poodle put her paws on Ozzy and he snapped! He was open mouth growling, but I could tell it wasn't in play.

I probably did the wrong thing, but I instinctively picked him up and took him away from the whole situation and took him back to the training space to talk to the trainer about what just happened. I knew he was tired and I kept him on my knee, petting him trying to calm him a bit. I was waiting my turn to talk to the trainer when the GR pup came nose to nose with Ozzy on my knee. He snapped at the GR!

The trainer gave me some pointers, saying his body language is very clear, he is uncomfortable and worried about other dogs. She suggested he meet nose to nose with other dogs for 3 seconds and then it's time to move on or away.

Then it was time for me to pay and I was at the cash paying when another dog came into the store. While I was gathering my wallet, Ozzy went up to the other dog (I think) and vice versa and Ozzy snapped again! That was 3x in a row!

I was feeling stressed myself (anxiety issues) but trying hard not to show it and we just paid for our stuff and went home after a short walk around (bc the store is 40 mins away). But feeling really discouraged.

So what now? I can apply the 3 second suggestion, but I would really like him to accept other dogs and be able to visit the LPS or whatever. I don't want to do the 3 second rule for the rest of his life.

What do all think? Is this the best course to take for him?

[Oscar 12345]

Kat, there is something called trigger stacking with dogs, so one uncomfortable incident is probably ok, even another but each uncomfortable incident or overwhelming incident increases the dog's stress levels and ability to cope/stay calm. That is what happened to Ozzy. It is really common and the objective is to keep Ozzy away from moving up the stress ladder so that he doesn't feel the need to snap. The 3 second rule is a good idea with training to help him come away at the 3 seconds and then move on but even too much of that at an early age might build up the stress. An important point that took me a while to understand was that your dog does not have to meet every dog, in fact, it is much better to set your dog up for success so every meeting should be thought through in terms of Ozzy's stress levels. It's really early days. Just take it easy, be patient, watch the signs and try not to overwhelm him. I think in your circumstances, continue with the class training but limit the amount of other interactions outside of the class because there is so much going on. Practice your 1-1 greetings outside of that when Ozzy won't be over stimulated by the training environment. You won't have to do the 3 second rule all his life, it's just a matter of small steps, appropriate interactions and positive experiences and most important of all, maturity.

[Oscar 12345]

https://www.k9turbotraining.com/post/wh ... r-stacking

Trigger stacking.

[Dawnspell]

I know that stress feeling, the last 15-20 minutes of every lesson Jasper was a nightmare. He just became too overwhelmed and would want to nip and lunge at everything, mainly my hands Ozzy was probably overtired and stressed himself so did the only thing he knew to try and change the situation.

Are all the puppies kept on lead during the lesson ? If so I would let the trainer know that you want a quiet corner so you can control his interactions with other dogs, and that you have identified hes not comfortable with other dogs yet so would like to use the lesson as different training opportunity. At the end of each lesson just be the first out of the door so you are still controlling the situation. Although short play with other puppies is good, puppies dont learn good dog manners from other puppies.

Out of lessons are there any areas near you where dogs are walked that you can just sit and let Ozzy watch them, reward him for not reacting, and do the 3 second rule if any approach. Or arrange to meet one of the pups he got along with for a walk.

The 3 sec rule is actually a good thing when you are walking a dog on lead especially if its a busy area. Any longer than that and some dogs want to start playing and jumping on each other or they decide they dont like each other and will woof or snap, some dogs just react badly and behave differently to another dog if its on lead. So dont view it as a bad thing to keep hellos short when your dog is on lead, you're controlling the situation and teaching him a behaviour you want when hes on lead. This is totally different to off lead interaction with dogs.

I havent taken Jasper back to training classes after puppy class because he was so focused on the other dogs and I dont really think he benefited from them. I want to take him back because I know he would love agility and they have to have attended obedience class first, but hes just not ready for all those dogs in one room its just too EXCITING !!!!

[Oscar 12345]

and adding to Alison's post, I had to pull Otto out of two training classes and we didn't go back. Seeing the dogs in the car park before we got in the classroom was too much. Sigh! So actually, I think you are doing rather well.

[zeta1454]

I would try to assess if Ozzy is really benefiting from the puppy class as too much excitement, too little rest time and calm away from the other dogs and too many incidents where he is nervous or uncomfortable are going to end up causing more problems than actually helping. Training classes with a lot of dogs are particularly stressful for puppies who have had very little socialisation previously and all the interactions in class should really be off-lead and one to one with each puppy able to come up to the other or not as they feel comfortable. As you said in your post, given the opportunity to make his own moves towards another puppy he was absolutely fine and the play bow shows he was inviting a game with that pup. Over exposure to other dogs and particularly on lead is not helpful and will stress him more. As said above, the 3 second rule is not really for puppy class interactions but for meeting dogs on a walk to avoid them getting too boisterous or reactive with each other.

It is unfortunate that the training class is part of a busy store in that it is going to be difficult for you to easily control the environment to keep Ozzy from meeting dogs that randomly come into the store. I would try to keep Ozzy on lead beside you at all times when he is not having free play in the class or in any other safe environment.

Don’t feel discouraged as Ozzy is still young and his reaction is due primarily to over tiredness by the sound of it. The poodle type puppy actually should not have been putting paws on Ozzy and he was quite justified in reacting to say he did not want this - not every dog or every person wants a stranger jumping on them and the poodle-type’s owner should have taken her away. Some dogs are naturally very self confident and want to interact physically with every dog they meet but actually this is not ideal as many dogs do not welcome that and putting paws on another dog can be seen as a dominant move which may well trigger a more hostile reaction. Puppies ( whether confident or not) all need to learn dog manners and social skills that help them interact safely with other dogs. All interactions between the pups in a training class situation should be managed by the trainer and assistants and preferably there should be a ratio of 1 trainer to every 2 pups or no more than 4. Negative experiences at this age can have a long lasting impact so you do need to be sure that Ozzy feels safe and secure when he attends class, that his play with other pups is 1-1 off lead in a safe space for a short period of time with no other pups free roaming and that, when he is out of class that he is on lead close by you and interactions with other dogs are only if he wants to...and use the three second rule then if need be.

[Schnauzerluv]

Oh! Thanks so much everybody, I didn't see the responses until now! All the comments were wonderful and make me feel so much better at ease with the sitch.

Julie, I actually read that about dogs holding onto cortisol (sometimes for days) and it makes total sense and comforts me in a weird way to know this might not be the way he always reacts to other dogs.

Leigh, yes, he was VERY tired. He was pretty much falling asleep on the ride home and fell asleep in my OH's arms once home. We know how puppies get when they are overtired.....

Allison, thanks for your experience with Jasper, I think that's exactly how ozzy was feeling. I def took it much slower next class and was very attentive to his body language.

So for my update:
We did lesson #3 this week. It was seriously a 180 from last class. I actually applied a lot of the advice offered (even though I didn't see this yet) and I let him approach dogs only if he wanted to on his own accord and took the "backway" to the class area. I have to wear a mask which I'm sure phych's him out a bit too, but I was careful to watch his body language and take it really slow and to console him like I would at home (getting down and talking to him).

At the front of the store was a 6 month poodle/yorkie a little bigger than him. After the owner and I established it was ok to meet, Ozzy went up to the poodle/yorkie. He was not interested in taking a way out (flight). But I was also feeling good that he wasn't stiff or looking uncomfortable. He actually really liked her and was play bowing a bit.

Then the poodle he told off last week showed up, but with the daughter owner this time. The poodle and poodle/yorkie were playing like the poodle does and this time (as one of the store employees later said) it looked like he was standing back a bit saying "Hey! That looks like fun!" and he was joining in in play after a few seconds.

We proceeded to the training area, but we approached the area from the back instead of greeting all the pups head on around the corner. The sweet hound pup wasn't there this class, but he was actually making friends with the poodle he told off last week and the yorkie puppy he liked last class. I kept everything to his own accord and let him know he could come back to me (social distance) if/ when he wants to. He was such a happy good boy, crawling for the tiny yorkie pup, on his back and rolling over and everything. He didn't really see any other pups because they were further away, but he was nice and social with the ones he could reach acting well. If he stated barking (he wasn't the only one, but we all know how vocal minis can be) I led him back and rewarded for a sit. Overall I was so proud of my boo and feeling so much better about the whole sitch.

I was thinking the class would be overwhelming for him and explained that to the trainer before I signed up. She didn't worry much that he hadn't seen another dog prior to the 1st class, and didn't really offer much advice at the time (which would have been nice), but my main reason for puppy class was TO socialize him and get him used to the store and other ppl and dogs. Probably the wrong idea (other pups) but it's so difficult with Covid (code red zone) I can't even have other ppl in my yard. But I do think adding structure by his training is helping him to build confidence.

So last week we were working on loose leash walking, so Ozzy was going for more walks. We didn't meet any dogs, but he was rewarded for remaining calm at a distance and until we passed the dog(s). I told him how nice it was to see the dog, then 'let's go" and it's time to move on. I belive the idea is create a positive response when he sees other dogs and ppl.

We also spend time in the front watching ppl and dogs walk by. He's training not to bark, to remain calm and also create a positive response with reward (verbal and food). I think it's working!!!

At first he was terrified to be on the street when cars drove by, then he started going to chase the cars (yikes), and now he's training to stay calm and leave the cars completely. He's doing so well! Hardly goes to chase them at all anymore. So cool how that works!

Basically I used this method for everything he was afraid of, strangers, cars, other dogs. I love watching Ozzy learn about the world

[Oscar 12345]

Sounds great Kat, don't worry if you have an off walk or class, in order to go forwards we sometimes have to take a step backwards and learning from whatever happened really helps.