Star gazing ???

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Teddy boo boo
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Star gazing ???

Post by Teddy boo boo »

Hi, can anyone tell me the symptoms of star gazing??? I've heard of it but not seen it - any info appreciated, thankyou x
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Maty »

I have no experience of this but this thread may help http://www.schnauzer-forum.co.uk/viewto ... tar+gazing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by zeta1454 »

Plenty of information in the above link from Maty :)

The term was I believe originally used for snakes who showed abnormal behaviour of stretching upwards and appearing disorientated :
http://www.anapsid.org/stargaze.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More recently it has been used for dogs displaying similar stretching movements, sometimes with snapping ( "fly biting" ) and also disorientation. It does seem to be a condition that is not fully understood and there are differing explanations the most common being that it is a neurological condition ( either hereditary or caused / triggered by neurotoxins in the environment or through being given to the dog direct via spot on flea/tick treatments or vaccines all of which contain substances that can damage the brain).

http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/flybite/flybite.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There has also been some research into the condition being caused by a gastro-intestinal problem:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4204840/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We did have a mini schnauzer many years back who displayed this type of behaviour - the fly biting but no seizures. In her case it was infrequent episodes and the vet we saw then said to just monitor it and no treatment or further investigation was done. She did ( at about ten years of age) collapse with a sudden and unexplained ( although fully investigated ) paralysis of all four limbs and required long and patient care and rehabilitation from us to recover the ability to walk but we have no way of knowing if these incidents were connected although clearly both did have a possible neurological connection.
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Teddy boo boo
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Teddy boo boo »

Thank you for all the info on stargazing, very appreciated xxx
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Darcy 250814 »

Hi , I have seen this with my Darcy who will be 1 year old this month. All the symptoms that have been described plus lifting her paw to her nose repeatedly.

I did take her for a check up at the vet, all was ok, blood tests for kidney function were fine too.
It happens less frequently now. She is fine in herself.

Kind regards Lin
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by oscarsmate »

Oscar does it sometimes, it would seem to be when he's not had his anti seizure meds consistently. He has libromide (bromide) and epiphen (barbiturates) twice a day. We did try and reduce the libromide dose as he was spending a lot of time asleep, but started star gazing so increased the dose which stopped it.

He sometimes does it now if he has vomited up his pills before they have dissolved.
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n annoying git but he was our git :D
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Agent »

I have an 8 year old mini who star gazes and 'fly bites' and have become a bit of an expert on the subject! Teasel started doing this when she was about a year old, pretty violently, sometimes she would even dart around the room snapping at the air. She looked as though she was in another world, bless her. If she did it mildly I could distract her verbally but when it was severe she would look right through me as if I wasn't there...she appeared not to hear me. The local vets didn't know what it was, and indeed she never did it at the vet. She saw a neurologist at the Royal Veterinary College, had an MRI that showed nothing, and it was declared that she was having partial seizures (I'd videoed it). She was put onto anti-seizure meds (I forget the name). Within 3 months these had started to damage her liver.

She was also displaying bizarre hind leg symptoms so I suspected that she may have a spinal injury that hadn't been spotted (I'm a physio). The neuros were convinced it was seizure related and persisted with seizure meds. Her liver results became dangerously bad, so I took her to see an internal medicine specialist who fortunately turned out to be very 'hands off'. She suggested that the star gazing could be an obsessive compulsive behaviour in response to distress or pain, and that we should take Teasel off the anti-seizure meds. This was a huge leap of faith, as you can imagine.....the neuros were leaping around saying "nooooo you can't do that! She'll have terrible seizures if you do that!"

Given the state of Teasel's liver, and that the star gazing was not under control, I decided to go with the OCD idea, and we withdrew the meds. We started treating her for IBD instead. No star gazing, and her liver results finally started to improve a little.

Over the next few years it's transpired that she has pancreatitis, and a very fragile spine. Every time she's in pain she star gazes....it's early warning for an acute pancreatitis attack. She also star gazes if she has a tick, or her anal glands are blocked, or even if she's really really bored and is getting pretty annoyed with waiting to go out for a walk (ie needs the loo)! If she fly bites at the same time I know she's in a lot of distress. It's a frightening thing to witness if your pup is doing it....really horrible.

If there's a way to post a video here, I will.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by zeta1454 »

Thank you for sharing that Anna - very interesting to read your experience with Teasel. Poor little soul - hope her painful episodes lessen with time.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Agent »

I'm not sure if this is how you do links to video, but here goes. It's 2.5 mins long, and is of Teasel stargazing mildly with a hint of fly-biting. She licks her lips and tends to twitch her ears a lot when she fly bites.

Image
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by tvmarie »

Hello, I can't tell you how re-assuring it has been to read these posts about your mini's stargazing and fly biting.

From what I've read, it would appear that there's no definitive diagnosis for it. However I can't tell you how much better I feel just knowing that I'm not alone.

My little Bonnie has been stargazing (or fly biting as we've called it) since she was spayed at a year old. Her symptoms include star gazing, fly bitting, darting around to look at her bum as if something has bitten her, scratching her beard, sniffing the area that she's been sat on and obsessive licking of her vulva.

We've been referred to a number of consultants and she's endured many procedures over the last 4 years. At first it was thought to have been linked to a tick bite on her vulva causing an infection. After many swabs and investigations nothing was found to explain why she would star gaze and lick her vulva constantly making it red raw. Eventually the vet decided to operate and change the shape of her vulva so that it was less likely to get infections.

It was a very painful operation with a long recovery and sadly it made absolutely no difference to the symptoms. She had other blood tests, scans and investigations into her bladder function, then into her Uterus.

Finally it was decided that it would be best to have her referred to a specialist to remove all of her reproductive organs in case the infection was an internal (uterine) infection that just kept returning. By this point she had been on Gabapentin regularly for about 3 years and had been on and off antibiotics on an almost bi-monthly basis.

She had the operation to remove all of her reproductive organs - and sadly - still no change to the symptoms that she has.

We then changed her diet - as it was then suggested that it may well be her diet or epilepsy - I decided that I'd rather rule out her diet first. She went on to UltraZD for three months with no treats or deviation. Sadly still no change.

My vet now thinks that I am a Hypochondriac MiniSchnauzer owner!... and is now telling me that all of her behaviours are normal. I feel very embarrassed now to even contact them for routine advice, I worry that they think Im making it all up. (However, how she can say its all normal now - when the very same symptoms triggered the prescription of drugs as well as the operations?? I just don't understand!).

I was about to book an appointment to see the specialist consultant to discuss epilepsy when I read this post.

Before I talk to any more professionals or have her booked in for any epilepsy tests/mri etc - I think I will try the Scullcap and Valerian tablets along with the hypersensitive diet. I feel more comfortable with trying a natural remedy than I do just giving her epilepsy drugs - now that I know the side effects some of you have faced.

Im just so sorry that I hadn't read this post before she underwent all of the operations! Thank you. I'll keep you posted of her progress.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Agent »

Hello tvmarie,
I'm so sorry to hear about Bonnie. Firstly, I cannot believe what your vet has put Bonnie (and you) through, and now has the audacity to imply that you're a hypochondriac owner. There are ways and means to treat all the symptoms you've described, and extensive surgery was your vet's recommendation. She has to take responsibility for that. Deep breath.

I'm very interested to read that Bonnie shares all the same symptoms that Teasel has at various times, but so far we've been able to treat them conservatively. She also darts around as though she's been bitten on the bum....that was her first ever sign. In fact these days she doesn't dart so much, but does a lot of sharp looks around at her bum, but I put this down to the fact that it's a different cause of irritation. In the early days I think she had severe spinal pain causing leg pain. Nowadays it's when her anal glands need emptying, or something as simple as she's got a 'cling on'! She's hyper sensitive to things not being 100% right, and alarming looking stargazing can be the result of something very trivial.

From time to time she also has the same irritation from her vulva that you describe with Bonnie - she gets obsessive about it, to the point where I have to put a collar on her. All tests prove negative and antibiotics don't work. I have however discovered that Pro-kolin enterogenic probiotic powder added to her diet helps when she's having a flare-up. The vet can't explain it, but it's worked twice now, and the condition has cleared up completely. Food wise, she's on Burns fish and brown rice btw as she has food sensitivities to every protein other than fish....even the derivative oils used in foods labelled as fish.

Out of interest, what are Bonnie's liver results like? Has the Gabapentin had any negative effect on her blood results?

I hope there's something useful in here that may give you an idea which direction to try next, without going down a further intervention route.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by tvmarie »

Hi Anna,
Thanks for your response! Yes, it does sound like your Teasel and Bonnie have a LOT in common!.
I hadn't even thought of the effect that the long term Gabapentin may be having on her liver.... perhaps I should approach the vet to find out? (Im a little conscious of asking her for anything after her last response though.)

Bonnie's been having more episodes recently and you are absolutely right - when they get more frequent I have occasionally linked it with something as simple as a "cling-on"! :-) I've often wondered if she's had IBS or even hemorrhoids? (There is no end to the possibilities!).

I have now started her on Skullcap and valerian - as it's a herbal remedy I can't see what the harm will be? Today was her first day on them so too early to see any changes.

Many thanks for sharing your feeding regime with me too - I've ordered both the Pro-Kolin powder and the Burns fish and brown rice diet. Though I'm not quite sure if I should do it all at the same time, or wait and try each one independently.

Thank you so much for sharing! I'll keep you posted of progress ...

Here's hoping that we manage to keep both Teasel and Bonnie happy and pain free - without the need for damaging drugs or any more operations!

Tanya. x
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by Agent »

Hi Tanya
A few more thoughts....
As Bonnie has been on Gabapentin for some time, your vet should have been doing periodic blood tests to monitor liver function (surely she has been anyway, given Bonnie's mysterious symptoms?). If you feel intimidated to ask, maybe a change in vet could be in order? Gabapentin caused quite severe liver problems for Teasel, thankfully reversible as the liver can repair itself. Beware also using herbal remedies without a) having had blood tests done first and b) researching really carefully that they can't cause any side effects. Over subsequent years I put Teasel on Dorwest glucosamine and chondroitin for her spine. Hidden in the small print there's a warning about liver disease. For years her liver results got worse and worse, until a genius specialist at Cambridge unearthed one obscure research paper saying it could cause liver failure. We stopped the tablets and for the first time in four years her liver results returned to completely normal, having been off the scale. My point is that there are so many facets to all this that you need to have a baseline to start from, and to know exactly what you're giving her. She might have had pain or annoyance from one thing one day, and then it have drifted to another thing another day.
Yes you could well be right that she has IBS - when I took Teasel away from the neurologists who said she was having partial seizures (and who gave her Gabapentin), I took her to the brilliant internal medicine specialist in Cambridge. She was the one who said hang on a second, this could be a highly strung dog who's stressed, displaying OCD symptoms in response to pain. She suspected IBD and changed her diet to Burns, and subsequently identified pancreatitis too. She's now on pancreatic enzymes (which my local vets have never even heard of) and can digest food without getting abdominal pain. How is Bonnie's tum? Any signs of problems?
Could the licking that you describe could be a pain reaction? - Teasel has done this in the past with her paws until they bleed. They're complex little creatures, bless them.
How about a change of vet if yours is making you feel uncomfortable? It's her failing, not yours, that Bonnie's troubles haven't been resolved. Local vets are only GP's...decide who you want to see and ask for the referral. I don't know where you are in the country, but I can give you a couple of names in the Surrey or Cambridge area if you want to PM me.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by tvmarie »

Hi Anna,
I've always been concerned that her behaviours are a pain response.
I am aware that raw hyde chews at night made her symptoms worse (her symptoms at night have improved now that they no longer get a raw hyde chew when I go out in the evening). So pain related to a digestive problem would seem like a distinct possibility.

Im in Oxfordshire, though I have been referred to a good specialist in Surrey (who performed the last operation). I was about to go back to them directly to discuss their suggestion that these attacks are seizures. However I'd like to hold off for a while now, until I've had the chance to try the new diet and tablets. I know that the next steps when I see them will be MRI scans etc and possible meds associated with epilepsy.


Im going to attempt to up load a video of her here.
http://vid1304.photobucket.com/albums/s ... fllkip.mp4

I hope that works! Tan.
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Re: Star gazing ???

Post by jacdales »

I cant see the video. but check out below. My vet insisted that my welsh terrier had epilepsy and I insisted she did not I have also noticed that to much chicken skin will bring on an attack so she is on a low fat diet.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CECS-SD/info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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