Poor recall when off leash

The Standard Schnauzer is a working or utility dog and is the original breed of the three sizes. Standard Schnauzers are generally a robust, squarely built, medium-sized dog with aristocratic bearings.
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juventus
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Poor recall when off leash

Post by juventus »

H all. I own a 2 and a half year old black male. Practically my shadow follows me everywhere. Only issue with him is off leash recall. He is excellent with recall at home, in the garden but when outdoors and especially in the presence of cats/dogs it's a complete disaster. He just zooms off to meet the other animals and ignores my calls completely. Treats useless, nothing gets him back. Is it a breed trait or is it me? Many thanks
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Robin black mini
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Robin black mini »

I suggest putting a harness on him and a 20 to 30 ft long line..start him off in a park allowing him the sensation of being off lead but with the security you have with the control of a long line...we used this system with my larger breed boy and he could run, but not run off.....use the line like a tracking line and let him sniff and trot ahead and call him back for a reward without being short leased...(the harness will be used , and not a collar ,which would shock his neck if you have to put on the brakes!)
I bought my long line from decathlon by the metre..( 20 euros)really cheap compared to the pre made training leads you buy in a pet shop...we bought the metal clip for his collar from the diy shop ,for about 2 euros..
We also used this method on our country field walks..the dog was "free" yet always under control ..we have wild boar,deer,and rabbits here..all can cause the dog to forget all his training ...it's a great way to get the dog used to his freedom yet to keep you in control.,and him safe , until you feel he is safe to let off the lead.
Next stage..
My hub and I would stay two hundred meters apart and call the dog to us..at this point the line was loose but if we needed we could catch up with the dog...as we progressed he was more trustworthy and had more focus on us..
You have to be more rewarding to the dog than running off...lots of praise..run and play when he is doing well.etc..good luck.
Here are some "distractions "we incur..a whole flock of loose sheep were in a local park,no warning,we turned a corner and there they were..!!
Image
On long line
Image

Image
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Barbarauttley
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Barbarauttley »

I think Jo's (Roninblackmini) suggestion a good one and would work but unfortunately the last time I tried the long lead with Billy at the park first he ran around a tree a couple of times and after I had untangled him he ran off, came back beautifully on recall then ran around me a couple of times! I managed to stay upright and step out of the tangle but it was a near thing!
juventus
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by juventus »

Tried the long line. Unfortunately he still does not respond to my calls encouraged by treats. Very stubborn. Moreover the line often gets stuck to stones or trees or myself. Will try to persevere. Thanks for your help.
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Robin black mini »

juventus wrote:Tried the long line. Unfortunately he still does not respond to my calls encouraged by treats. Very stubborn. Moreover the line often gets stuck to stones or trees or myself. Will try to persevere. Thanks for your help.
Then you are giving him too much line at once..let him have six ft.,then ten etc..remember,you are in charge..you have to be patient..if you let him do his thing,nothing will change..in fact it will reinforce his impulse to charge off.
If you want to master this dog you have to get a bit stricter with your boy or he will call the shots..
Trust me,I did this with a rottie and got fed up when she would hare off...we went back to basics and she only got the freedom I gave her...in the end she won a CDX level trophy in USA so it can be done.

Another idea is to get into a class where the goal is to train off lead with your dog in a group ..well worth the effort.
juventus
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by juventus »

I will follow your advice Robin. Will keep you posted. Many thanks
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Codypops »

Don't beat yourself up....Standards....its a breed trait.
And very frustrating it is too.
I find that, if they are familiar with their surroundings, they are worse. Mine do come back to me when in unfamiliar territory. The older ones take their time, the young one (with whom I have done quite a lot of training) comes straight back.
However, here on the farm, where they know every inch of the land better than me, and where there are hundreds of distractions (particularly rabbits), they can always find better things to do and will not recall.
Of course, they do come back eventually!!
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by LigginsC »

Just to support other posts. We also have a black standard, 3.5 years old. We spent hours with him as a puppy/young dog ensuring he had good recall- to no avail. So we have him on a Ruffware harness and a long lead for half the year when rabbits, hares and squirrels are around, but do get him off the lead during the winter because provided he does not pick up a scent all our early work is adhered to ☺ As the previous response mentioned he does eventually come back, but it can be 3 hrs later!! My husband has just invested in a GPS tracking devices to see how that works if necessary - we have miles of open fields around us so when he goes, he goes!! Good luck x
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Robin black mini »

LigginsC wrote:Just to support other posts. We also have a black standard, 3.5 years old. We spent hours with him as a puppy/young dog ensuring he had good recall- to no avail. So we have him on a Ruffware harness and a long lead for half the year when rabbits, hares and squirrels are around, but do get him off the lead during the winter because provided he does not pick up a scent all our early work is adhered to ☺ As the previous response mentioned he does eventually come back, but it can be 3 hrs later!! My husband has just invested in a GPS tracking devices to see how that works if necessary - we have miles of open fields around us so when he goes, he goes!! Good luck x
If this happened over here the dog would be shot!
Have any of you considered doing an advanced obedience course where the end goal is to work the dog off lead with distractions?
It is one thing to work at home in the garden but surely the goal is to have a dog who is safe and reliable off lead whatever the distractions.
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by flugelboneman »

Our first Std taught us one thing: When they are on a mission they are like guided missiles and nothing will curtail them e.g. another dog, rabbit, bird, alien etc. When Kaiser was 2 he ignored my call to come back and almost got hit by a car. I had tried everything and 90% of the time he would listen, except, as mentioned, when on a mission. I bought an electronic collar. First the command, then the beep. If ignored a small jolt he would feel thru the collar. Within days, his obsessive mission activity could be interrupted by only the beep. We kept the collar on for a while, but he became so good on returning we removed it. Problem solved. The collar is not cruel, as the shock is quite slight. I tried it myself. But it was strong enough to interrupt his concentration and strong enough that he did not want another. I think I zapped him no more than 3 times before he completely obeyed the beep signal. They are available thru Cabelas for about 100 bucks.
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by Dawnspell »

flugelboneman wrote:Our first Std taught us one thing: When they are on a mission they are like guided missiles and nothing will curtail them e.g. another dog, rabbit, bird, alien etc. When Kaiser was 2 he ignored my call to come back and almost got hit by a car. I had tried everything and 90% of the time he would listen, except, as mentioned, when on a mission. I bought an electronic collar. First the command, then the beep. If ignored a small jolt he would feel thru the collar. Within days, his obsessive mission activity could be interrupted by only the beep. We kept the collar on for a while, but he became so good on returning we removed it. Problem solved. The collar is not cruel, as the shock is quite slight. I tried it myself. But it was strong enough to interrupt his concentration and strong enough that he did not want another. I think I zapped him no more than 3 times before he completely obeyed the beep signal. They are available thru Cabelas for about 100 bucks.
I'm afraid the majority of people on this forum would not agree with the use of a shock collar. This is also the view of the kennel club

The Kennel Club is against the use of any negative training methods or devices. The Kennel Club believes that there are many positive training tools and methods that can produce dogs that are trained just as quickly and reliably, with absolutely no fear, pain, or potential damage to the relationship between dog and handler.

Research

Existing research has highlighted the detrimental impact ESCs may have on dog welfare. These studies have focused on the physiological effects and the impacts on learning through the use of electric shock collars.

Recent research commissioned by the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) showed that there were significant long term negative welfare consequences for a proportion of the dogs that were trained with ESCs. The studies concluded that even when electric shock collars were used by professionals following an industry set standard of training approved by the Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association (ECMA), there were still long term negative impacts on dog welfare. Lastly, the studies also demonstrated that positive reinforcement methods were effective in treating livestock chasing, which is the most commonly cited justification of their use.
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by zeta1454 »

Dawnspell wrote:
flugelboneman wrote:Our first Std taught us one thing: When they are on a mission they are like guided missiles and nothing will curtail them e.g. another dog, rabbit, bird, alien etc. When Kaiser was 2 he ignored my call to come back and almost got hit by a car. I had tried everything and 90% of the time he would listen, except, as mentioned, when on a mission. I bought an electronic collar. First the command, then the beep. If ignored a small jolt he would feel thru the collar. Within days, his obsessive mission activity could be interrupted by only the beep. We kept the collar on for a while, but he became so good on returning we removed it. Problem solved. The collar is not cruel, as the shock is quite slight. I tried it myself. But it was strong enough to interrupt his concentration and strong enough that he did not want another. I think I zapped him no more than 3 times before he completely obeyed the beep signal. They are available thru Cabelas for about 100 bucks.
I'm afraid the majority of people on this forum would not agree with the use of a shock collar. This is also the view of the kennel club

The Kennel Club is against the use of any negative training methods or devices. The Kennel Club believes that there are many positive training tools and methods that can produce dogs that are trained just as quickly and reliably, with absolutely no fear, pain, or potential damage to the relationship between dog and handler.

Research

Existing research has highlighted the detrimental impact ESCs may have on dog welfare. These studies have focused on the physiological effects and the impacts on learning through the use of electric shock collars.

Recent research commissioned by the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) showed that there were significant long term negative welfare consequences for a proportion of the dogs that were trained with ESCs. The studies concluded that even when electric shock collars were used by professionals following an industry set standard of training approved by the Electronic Collar Manufacturers Association (ECMA), there were still long term negative impacts on dog welfare. Lastly, the studies also demonstrated that positive reinforcement methods were effective in treating livestock chasing, which is the most commonly cited justification of their use.
There are moves to have Electric Shock Collars banned in those parts of the UK where they are still legal. (It is a different situation in USA I believe.)

"The Kennel Club is calling on the Scottish Government, the Westminster Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly to introduce a ban on the sale and use of electric shock collars.

Whilst the Scottish Parliament is currently looking to regulate electric shock collars, we are currently campaigning for them to be banned as it the case in Wales.

The Welsh Assembly has already introduced the ban as part of the Animal Welfare Act after the Welsh Assembly agreed that there was enough evidence to prove that banning the devices would improve animal welfare.

Electric training collars are already banned in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany and in some states in Australia."




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flugelboneman
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by flugelboneman »

It was not my intent to create a controversy. After a brief exposure to the training collar, it never had to be used again and our Std went on to live 12 wonderful years. His recall off leash was never a problem and he certainly did not suffer any personality issues, and his feisty Std attitude lived on till the end. I understand your inflexible position on this kind of training. I will do it again if it means saving my off leash dog from death due to being struck by a car, or involvement with an aggressive dog. I will take great care when offering suggestions on this website.
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Poor recall when off leash

Post by zeta1454 »

flugelboneman wrote:It was not my intent to create a controversy. After a brief exposure to the training collar, it never had to be used again and our Std went on to live 12 wonderful years. His recall off leash was never a problem and he certainly did not suffer any personality issues, and his feisty Std attitude lived on till the end. I understand your inflexible position on this kind of training. I will do it again if it means saving my off leash dog from death due to being struck by a car, or involvement with an aggressive dog. I will take great care when offering suggestions on this website.
I realised from your first post that you were not trying to be controversial and please do not feel you cannot make suggestions based upon your experience :-)

Schnauzer Forum is UK based, although it does have members from around the world, and it is important to be aware of different attitudes and legal situations which may have a bearing on whether or not advice can be followed, quite apart from differing cultural / personal attitudes. As there are countries where shock collars are (or are about to become) illegal, this needed to be highlighted.

There have been many topics raised and discussed over the years on the Forum which are "controversial " and have seen passionate views expressed on both sides - from raw feeding, vaccination, unusual colours, breeding......and training methods. People can and do have strong feelings on a range of issues concerning their dogs, but there is no need to feel that you cannot relate your experience, just as others can state their view point too :-)


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flugelboneman
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Re: Poor recall when off leash

Post by flugelboneman »

thank you for your reply
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