Renae & men, what's the problem?

Training, Behaviour and Dog Sport all have their own section, so please post your question where you feel it is most appropriate.
Locked
User avatar
BeeBee
Member
Posts: 7576
Joined: 18 Dec 2010, 08:09
First Name: Janetta
Location: France
Contact:

Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by BeeBee »

Ok, so we have a lovely dog in Renae, she's responsive, on the whole quite calm, has very good manners with other dogs & nothing out of the ordinary with behavioural glitches that can't be put down to her young age, basically she's getting it 99% of the time.

The last week however has thrown something into focus for us as we've been in our holiday home & have had new visitors coming & going & some staying, so lots of new visitor experiences for her. As reported last week her barking was lively to say the least but by a combination of approaches she did manage to settle down eventually. But what we did really notice was that she was a hell of a lot more vocal & wound up in an excited, possibly territorial way with the male visitors.

This was just brought home to me by a quick visit by our elderly female neighbour, apart from a quick hello bark, Renae was immediately under control & good as gold. Maybe all the hard work over the last few day has paid off, but if that had been a male we reckon she wouldn't have quietened as quickly. It is a pattern we had started to notice at home with my brother when he visits.

Does anyone have dogs who similarly are much more reactive to men? There's no reason at all we can account for it with Renae in terms of bad treatment in the past etc, a thing one often hears with rescue dogs & men.
Jasmine (RIP) Renae b.01.11.10, sister to Susie-Belle (RIP), Twinkle (RIP), Cerise & Albert Claude puppy farm rescues, my muses
Creator of Schnauzerfest a good thing made possible by 1000s of good people & dogs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Susie-Be ... 0289434936
http://www.janettaharvey.com/
User avatar
nickycaplan
Member
Posts: 2378
Joined: 27 Apr 2009, 14:28

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by nickycaplan »

lola doesnt like any men she doesnt know....as you say, the barking is more intense with men, but better with women! but she has had bad experiences with strange men and I put it down to that? if a man is wearing a flourescent jacket, she barks even more ie delivery men binmen etc....we are taking her away for the first time in five years this year, to a cottage in Wales..I am a little bit nervous as I know she will bark at the owner(a man) when he lets us in etc....but she is much much calmer than she used to be hence why we are taking her with us this time...and thankfully a postman wont be calling at the cottage everyday either(dont even go there with her reactions to postmen!)I have always pointed sternly and said a firm no when she keeps on and on and all my male friends know to just turn around and completely ignore her...this works in the home, but outside she can still have a barking fit at strangers if she isnt 'sure' etc.
schnauzer lover...dog artist www.nickycaplan.com
Tulip

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by Tulip »

Hey.

A few things can trigger fear for men; Maisy doesn't care either way most of the time, but when my brother visited from Sydney, she really didn't like him. She didn't bark or anything, but she was evasive and wouldn't go near him, so much so that she didn't even get off the sofa as he was sat nearby. At first I didn't understand it, but then I began to see exactly why she was so afraid of him. For one thing, he's built like a tank (he did ballet for about twelve years) and is tall. Secondly, he stared at her; he didn't mean to be so intimidating, but he would look at her and talk, trying to coax her, but I can only imagine how afraid she must have been to have a huge stranger staring right in her face. He would chase her a little to try and give her a pat, and would often try to test whether she liked him by not by blocking her ways off the sofa so she had to be petted by him. Obviously I stopped him from doing these things, but he really didn't understand how upset he was making her, simple things like body language can make a huge difference.

Sometimes we have fearful dogs in the salon and here are a few body language tips I find can REALLY help, they're made the difference between being bitten and being kissed by certain dogs that aren't used to strangers. Perhaps you can advise the visiting men with them?

1) Never look straight in the face and make eye contact, as it's very intimidating for a dog, and is challenging.

2) Always approach with your body sideways, and from the side of a dog as oppose from the front as this is an intimidating gesture.

3) Use soft, neutral tones as too high a voice is excitable and stressful, and too low is threatening and unnerving.

4) Always touch neutral areas such as the throat, and shoulder, as oppose to the top of the head which is a threatening gesture.


I would also suggest a little Victoria Stilwell technique I really like, which is to have some treats nearby whenever you have a man visit. He must completely ignore Renae- any attention tells her she's doing a good job, and him leaving means she's scared the threat away and it's self-rewarding. So just ignoring her completely (no eye contact especially) and throwing out pieces of chicken/treats on the floor as he comes in should really help and show her that men=treats. I would then just settle her with a Kong or likewise and completely ignore her is she's barking at all.

I hope this helps! xx
User avatar
BeeBee
Member
Posts: 7576
Joined: 18 Dec 2010, 08:09
First Name: Janetta
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by BeeBee »

Cheers both. She's better out than in: it's definitely a bigger deal at home than outside where she's fine, no problems although she is quite a cautious greeter with new people, male & female. Which suggests a bit of territorial something as it's happening on her territory not away from it?

Interesting re size of men: no consistency here, my brothers huge, nephews have been small in stature but tone of voice I guess is pretty deep & guttural.

We've done the no eye contact thing, & no stroking, lots of treats when she's been calmer, she eventually after a little patience would stretch at full stretch towards the hand holding the treat, so it would appear some fear/anxiety as she clearly didn't want to risk getting too close. Her tummy overruled in the end & by the time the big nephew left on Monday she was calmer with him & responded to his commands well, took treats but wouldn't let him stroke her, she sprang away as soon as that happened.

She also seems better with older people, my elderly dad she practically ignores. Maybe young men are radiating too much "something" that she's responding too. Don't ask me what!
Jasmine (RIP) Renae b.01.11.10, sister to Susie-Belle (RIP), Twinkle (RIP), Cerise & Albert Claude puppy farm rescues, my muses
Creator of Schnauzerfest a good thing made possible by 1000s of good people & dogs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Susie-Be ... 0289434936
http://www.janettaharvey.com/
User avatar
hula-hoop
Member
Posts: 8822
Joined: 28 Jun 2010, 18:44
First Name: sara
Dog #1: Stanley
is a: P/S Mini Dog
Born: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Lincs

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by hula-hoop »

Stanley is definately more wary of men than women. I dont know why it is. He will let a lot of female strangers say hello to him fine, but not men the majority of the time. For thr first 3 or 4 days on bringing him home he didnt like my hubby and wouldnt go near him - of course he adores him now, but as there was no apparent reason for this it did worry us. We put it down to maybe men's voices being louder and deeper, and their body language being more imposing? Also, I guess the high pitched voices females tend to use with little puppies is more comforting to them...
Stanley ratbag - s & p mini born 4/6/10
User avatar
BeeBee
Member
Posts: 7576
Joined: 18 Dec 2010, 08:09
First Name: Janetta
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by BeeBee »

I think you're probably right HH on the voice differences between men & women. Yesterday I walked her ladyship up the lane & a guy we occasionally see here who hasn't met her yet, stopped in his car to say hello & although she was cautious about greeting him, she did allow him a stroke and didn't bark at all. But he didn't really speak much (I was on my own & my French is always a bit scarce beyond the basic pleasantries).
Jasmine (RIP) Renae b.01.11.10, sister to Susie-Belle (RIP), Twinkle (RIP), Cerise & Albert Claude puppy farm rescues, my muses
Creator of Schnauzerfest a good thing made possible by 1000s of good people & dogs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Susie-Be ... 0289434936
http://www.janettaharvey.com/
User avatar
august23
Member
Posts: 2229
Joined: 27 Nov 2008, 15:26
Location: Oxford

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by august23 »

Otto is not keen on men at all. He can get quite nasty at times. We didn't have him until he was six mnths old. He was in kennels up until then. I've always put it down to poor socialisation with men. As most of the kennel staff were women. We're aware of it now, & it's easily managed.
Otto Black Standard
Ruby Black Mini
daisys_mummy

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by daisys_mummy »

Men smell different to women on a hormonal level I reckon. That's the only reason I can figure it out.
Stature and so on may play a part, but there are plenty of big women, and many women are just as physically intimidating as men, so that can't be the only reason...

This is my reasoning:

We couldn't understand why a lot of male wary dogs were fine with Nick, my collie - my friends Akita, and loads more - dogs just love him! (probabaly cos he's allergic as well mind you! Dog just know these things...)

But no..The first time he met my collie she loved him right away, and previously she's always been wary of strange men, for no reason at all, just has been.

My friends Akita, lovely dog, but is wary of men as well at first, Nick give his head a rub, and he wasn't fussed.

Nick has a hormonal inbalance, it means he produces too much oestrogen and not enough testosterone, which is one of the reasons we can't have kids - there's no sperm as his body just doesn't produce it.

I, on the other hand, have too much testosterone - PCOS and a whole kaboodle of stuff, and some dogs that are man shy tend to be man shy around me as well at first - only sometimes though, probably when I haven't washed (giggle)

My thinking is this - dogs can smell cancer and diabetes and sugar levels and so on, I think they can smell testosterone - and to a dog, that's challenging.



Bizarre theory, but perhaps it's true?

If so, spray all your male visitors with perfume (giggle)
User avatar
Snazy
Member
Posts: 2026
Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 21:43
First Name: Jo
Dog #1: Tara
is a: Black Giant Bitch
Born: 09 Sep 1998
Dog #2: Fria
is a: White Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Apr 2012
Dog #3: Vala
Born: 28 Feb 2012
is a: Black Giant Bitch
Location: NW
Contact:

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by Snazy »

Having met you both, it could just as easily be body language! (giggle)
'Pedigree indicates what the animal should be
Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be
But performance indicates what the animal is'


Anonymous

Beanara Minature & Giant Schnauzers
daisys_mummy

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by daisys_mummy »

ROFL it could be :P

Anyways, whats wring with my body!

There's enough of it! Surely a part of it's gotta be ok :P
User avatar
BeeBee
Member
Posts: 7576
Joined: 18 Dec 2010, 08:09
First Name: Janetta
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by BeeBee »

Interesting theory DM & entirely possible I think. I used to teach olfactory science & although I can't remember the details we used to include stats & things identifying the incredible differences between human & dog olfaction. Their sense of smell is amazingly more acute than humans & can pick scent up across a much, much wider spectrum. As DAP products address problems via olfaction, I don't see why male odours couldn't be more exciting for some dogs & trigger more reactions. How I address it with Renae though is still something I need to work on.
Jasmine (RIP) Renae b.01.11.10, sister to Susie-Belle (RIP), Twinkle (RIP), Cerise & Albert Claude puppy farm rescues, my muses
Creator of Schnauzerfest a good thing made possible by 1000s of good people & dogs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Susie-Be ... 0289434936
http://www.janettaharvey.com/
daisys_mummy

Re: Renae & men, what's the problem?

Post by daisys_mummy »

Perhaps a DAP collar to mask the scent then?

xx
Locked