21st century Puppy Buying

[zeta1454]

Much has changed in the past couple of decades since we got our first miniature schnauzer after lengthy phone calls and a year of waiting for a puppy from the right breeder. Nowadays it can seem a minefield trying to avoid the puppy farmers and dealers and the breeders who have neither the knowledge or means to responsibly bring more little pups into the world. There are thousands of pups and dogs in rescue who need good homes so, if you have made the decision not to go down that route but to find a pedigree puppy that has had the best start in life to join your family, it is useful to be able to use the many online resources to back up your search.

A good starting point is the Kennel Club website which has a wealth of information and resources:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/getting-a-dog-or-puppy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Once you have found a list of possible breeders you can begin to prepare some questions which should help you to narrow down your search even further. Expect to be quizzed yourself about your family and background but be ready with your own enquiries too. Here are some of the ones I would expect to ask:

What are the full Kennel Club registration names of the pups' parents?

This is essential as it will enable you to check a lot of information online via MyKC and the Kennel Club Health Test Finder.

How old is the mother and how many litters has she had?

Under Kennel Club rules the mother of the pups should not be under a year old or older than eight years and have had no more than four litters. Personally I would regard eight as too old for breeding and would hope that a bitch was under six years old as a maximum. You can check how many litters have been registered to her and which dogs she has been mated with as well her pups from previous litters if any online via MyKC also.

Is the breeder a member of any of the breed clubs?

I would be very surprised if a breeder who is passionate about their breed does not have membership of any of the relevant breed clubs. Through the Club a breeder has access to health information regarding their breed, can share information and meet with other breeders/ owners and have the opportunity to see potential sires for their litters up close and assess their fitness and temperament at breed club shows. The breed clubs also often have their own rules regarding health testing of breeding stock which go above and beyond those required by the Kennel Club. The required and recommended health schemes for the Miniature and the giant schnauzer can be found here:

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/servic ... px?id=4096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/servic ... px?id=5089" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Have the parents of the pups been health tested as per the required and recommended health tests and will the litter be screened?

Health testing is vital and should be regarded as essential by puppy seekers. The results as regards the parents together with the parents health test pedigree can be viewed online for you to check:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/service ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Will you be getting a Contract of Sale and are there any endorsements regarding breeding and export ?

It is very important that you get a Contract of Sale which you and the breeder sign when you collect the puppy and that any endorsements are explained to you at this time. Responsible breeders will both sign to confirm that they will always assist in the future with advice and any necessity for re homing a dog they have bred and that they do not wish their pups to be used for breeding in the future without their prior consent and written confirmation to the Kennel Club. The Co tract will also have full details of the puppy including its KC registration number and name - you should also be given the KC registration document and a pedigree.

Why did the breeder choose to use the particular sire for the litter?

This may seem a strange question but the answer may well offer some guidance as to a breeder who is breeding intelligently and with forethought to produce quality pups who are of the best health and temperament they can be. A good breeder will understand the good and less good points of their own bitch and will know their pedigree going back many generations and have at least some knowledge of the dogs that are in that pedigree. When they choose a sire it should be because they know that dog will improve on their bitch, will bring qualities of good health and temperament and will be compatible with the breeding lines of their bitch without being too closely related as to be inbred. If the sire has been chosen simply because it was their other dog, or the dog of a neighbour/ friend or family member, or it was offered as a stud online at a good price then I would walk away. The in-breeding of a dog can also be checked online as long as you have the registered kennel name.

What socialisation has been done with the puppies before they go to their new homes?


Temperament is so important in a puppy and dog and while a large part of this may come through the genes with responsible breeding, socialisation to accustom the puppies to the world of human society is paramount if behavioural problems are not to start making life really hard for the new owner. Much will need to be done by the new family when they collect the pup but really this should have been started by the breeder from when the pups were a few weeks old. You will want to know how much they have done to get pups used to a range of different noises, people, animals, environments etc before you collect them.

There may be other questions and issues that also need addressing and of course individual circumstances which may need discussion with a breeder before you commit to buying a puppy but all the above are IMO top priorities when looking for a breeder and it is useful to know how much information can be checked online if you have any doubts about the answers you are given. I would also mention that I am writing this for UK based puppy seekers and not all the resources will be available to anyone overseas or not via the links I have given. The resources at the Kennel Club do also relate to Kennel Club registered dogs only so any dogs imported may also have limited information available there.

[Eddie]

I've made this topic an "Announcement" as I think it's really useful information.

[zeta1454]

Thanks Eddie. Just for illustration purposes, this is an example of a Health Test Pedigree available to view online for dogs where the registered KC name is known. It is for one of our puppies where the sire was originally imported from abroad by his owners and therefore the KC only hold the sire's own UK records and not his parents. He was from a kennel that has an exemplary health testing record for their dogs however

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[BeeBee]

There's a lot of really useful information in Leigh's post.

I would add that the environment that the puppies are being reared in with the breeder is one of the most important things to be looking carefully at when a buyer narrows down their search for their puppy. Personally if puppies are not living within the home and being part of the home environment (whilst of course having their own proper, safe place as per would be expected of baby anythings) I would walk away. This will rule out some professional breeders who may well meet all the other expectations but keep their dogs separately from the normal, regular home environment and interactions with the puppies are less loving, frequent and genuinely caring than I would like to see. Breeders who have frequent litters are going to struggle to meet my expectations here as practically, they just won't have the space in their home to rear litter after litter in the ways I expect. They would soon cross into commercial scale territory, which is something I do not support. I know plenty will disagree with me. I place such a high importance on this particular aspect having done a lot of intensive research over the past year or so into just how damaging it is to dogs development when their early weeks are light in terms of loving, human contact, handling and stimulation, as well as that from their mother. I wrote a short blog post this week on just this topic, with reference to my own agenda of course, which is campaigning against puppy farming and bad breeding practices.

[zeta1454]

I absolutely agree with BeeBee that the puppies should be reared in the home and have plenty of human contact and experience of living in a normal family home. The Puppy Plan is one of the important online resources here for both breeder and new owner with the emphasis on individual puppy care from birth onwards which does require the kind of intensive commitment to good rearing that will not be possible in a large scale concern.

http://www.thepuppyplan.com/the-puppy-plan#.U7POG9q9KK0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[zeta1454]

I thought it would be useful to add to this thread a few more points which may be helpful to puppy seekers.

1) For anyone looking for a well reared puppy and some pointers as to the work that is put into raising a healthy, confident and well socialised litter, do have a look at the Puppy Culture website. Currently I would say this is the gold standard of puppy rearing and should certainly provide a blueprint of the kind of breeding you should be looking for and at the least give an idea of questions you could ask a breeder as to the way they have raised the litter you are viewing:
https://www.puppyculture.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


2) From 6 April 2016 it will be illegal for a breeder to sell a puppy which has not been microchipped and registered in the breeder's name. The microchip must be implanted ( with a few minor exceptions) by 8 weeks of age and the documentation showing the full details of the registration of the microchip given to new puppy families when they take their puppy. They must receive all the information necessary to change the microchip registration details into their own name. So do make sure that any puppy you purchase has been microchipped by the breeder into their name and that you have been given the relevant paperwork.

3) you should also be looking for a breeder who is having their puppies health checked by a vet prior to sale and who can give you paperwork to confirm this. It is at this point that the microchip can be important as the chip number identifying that particular puppy can confirm for you that the health check details you are being given are those of the puppy you are buying.



This is an example of the kind of health check confirmation you would be hoping for although the details given may vary. As this is for a particular puppy the microchip details have been deliberately blurred.

[zeta1454]

I have written a lot about the health, registration requirements etc etc to look for when looking for a puppy nowadays but, In the wake of the recent Panorama programme on the Puppy Trade, I noticed a number of people commenting on social media that they are not sure how to identify "dealers" and stooge homes when looking for a puppy. My feeling is that this is because they are approaching getting a puppy in the wrong way ( i.e. by Internet search or looking at classified ads) and I thought it worth adding a few "rules" for puppy seekers that may help:

The first rule when looking for a puppy is " Do not look for a puppy"

Look for a breed by finding out as much as possible about the type of dog you are interested in; speak to owners; meet dogs of that breed at shows or Discover Dogs events - learn as much as possible about the breed type and characteristics; are you certain that you can fulfil the needs of a puppy and dog of that breed for up to 15+ years including feeding, exercise, grooming, veterinary care when required and of course lots of love and attention? First and foremost make sure you are looking for the breed that will fit perfectly into your family.

The second rule of looking for a puppy is "Do not look for a puppy"
Look for a breeder - and that does not mean doing a Google search for breeders of x type of dog. It means contacting breeders via the Kennel Club lists and breed specific clubs and being prepared to question them ( via email or phone) about how they raise their litters, how often they breed ( prioritise those that breed no more than once or twice in a year) and whether you can meet them and their dogs - at an event or at their home. The benefit of meeting a breeder and their dogs at an event such as a club show or an organised dog walk is that you may also have the opportunity to meet and talk to families who have had a puppy from them. Expect the breeder to quiz you too and want to know as much as possible about your family life, work commitments, home environment, experience with dogs etc.

The third rule of looking for a puppy is "Look for the highest standards of care"
While it is always good to have first hand recommendations of a breeder from someone who knows them or has had a puppy from them, expectations of what is an acceptable way to raise a puppy may vary greatly. It is not enough nowadays simply to know that a litter has been born and raised in the house, the best breeders understand the need to provide a challenging and supportive environment for growing puppies, early socialisation, exposure to other dogs, household noises, different rooms, indoors and out, making sure that they have access to toys and equipment they will help develop their physical and mental skills and plenty of human handling and interaction to stimulate their bonds with people. When you go to visit puppies, if they are simply on sawdust or newspaper with no separate toilet area, if they have no toys, if you have never seen evidence of them playing with their siblings, exploring different environments, interacting with their mother, having fun and enjoying life...walk away. If the standards of care are not those you would offer to a puppy in your home, it is not a place you should be looking to obtain a puppy.

The fourth rule of looking for a puppy is "Be patient"

If you are fully confident you have found the right breed and have your name down on a waiting list of preferably several excellent breeders, be prepared to wait and be prepared to travel. Waiting lists can be long for a good breeder and, if a litter is small, it can mean a year or more before you get a puppy but introducing a new family member should never be a snap decision or done on a whim - and that applies whether getting a puppy, older dog or a rescue. Research, prepare and be patient - it will be worth it

[Maty]

Great comments Leigh!

I have been so lucky with both of my boys. With Rodders, I did it all wrong & left it far too late as I didn't understand the rules you have written above. I was puppy farm aware and losing heart at fining a decent breeder and litter. I was saved by someone from this forum who had someone drop off their list at exactly the right time for me.

Creggan was a very lucky find, again through the forum. His breeder is exceptional and we have remained friends. I love to see how all his relations are doing and we get to meet up at least once a year.

Is it OK to be on the list for more than one breeder? If a breeder didn't have a pup available, but thought you could be a perfect owner, would they recommend you to another breeder they know or would you suggest they waited for the next litter?


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[Gina]

I didn't do it correctly either - but ioli Was raised in a family home and I did meet her siblings and the Mum, and I did ask the right questions but I think I was lucky really to have found such a lovely pup.

This forum and its discussions have taught me much over the last couple of years and when the time comes for an addition to the family (be it a pup or a rescue), I will use all of the information I have gleaned. Thank you x


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[zeta1454]

Is it OK to be on the list for more than one breeder? If a breeder didn't have a pup available, but thought you could be a perfect owner, would they recommend you to another breeder they know or would you suggest they waited for the next litter?


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Most certainly any good breeder would not expect you to restrict yourself to just them from the outset and, if they believe that you could offer an excellent home to a puppy, they will try to put you in touch with a breeder they know. It is highly likely that the best breeders will have a waiting list of potential families for their puppies and, if a litter is smaller than expected or through some tragedy a puppy does not make it, or even if the family are set on a male or a female puppy...it can often be the case that there are some disappointed puppy seekers. As the best breeders are most likely to be part of a network of others whose passion is a particular breed ( through a breed club or through showing), they will have come to know a number of breeders personally and also be able to identify those they trust to rear their puppies well and those it might be better to avoid. So, although someone might want to wait for a puppy from a particular breeder's next litter, it would be their choice and the breeder themselves are unlikely to expect it although they may well prioritise them if it happens to try and ensure they do get a puppy on the next occasion.

I would say as well ( just as an aside ) that many of the most reputable owners of first class stud dogs are also responsible and careful when it comes to breeding issues, being knowledgeable about pedigrees and inbreeding, concerned to protect the integrity of any breeding via their dogs, will not just accept anyone to use their stud, frequently will not expect payment for the dog's services until it is certain that a healthy litter of pups have been born, and will offer a mating on a subsequent season if something goes awry and the mating is not successful.

[Grice]

Is it OK to be on the list for more than one breeder? If a breeder didn't have a pup available, but thought you could be a perfect owner, would they recommend you to another breeder they know or would you suggest they waited for the next litter?


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Most certainly any good breeder would not expect you to restrict yourself to just them from the outset and, if they believe that you could offer an excellent home to a puppy, they will try to put you in touch with a breeder they know. It is highly likely that the best breeders will have a waiting list of potential families for their puppies and, if a litter is smaller than expected or through some tragedy a puppy does not make it, or even if the family are set on a male or a female puppy...it can often be the case that there are some disappointed puppy seekers. As the best breeders are most likely to be part of a network of others whose passion is a particular breed ( through a breed club or through showing), they will have come to know a number of breeders personally and also be able to identify those they trust to rear their puppies well and those it might be better to avoid. So, although someone might want to wait for a puppy from a particular breeder's next litter, it would be their choice and the breeder themselves are unlikely to expect it although they may well prioritise them if it happens to try and ensure they do get a puppy on the next occasion.

I would say as well ( just as an aside ) that many of the most reputable owners of first class stud dogs are also responsible and careful when it comes to breeding issues, being knowledgeable about pedigrees and inbreeding, concerned to protect the integrity of any breeding via their dogs, will not just accept anyone to use their stud, frequently will not expect payment for the dog's services until it is certain that a healthy litter of pups have been born, and will offer a mating on a subsequent season if something goes awry and the mating is not successful.

That's a very interesting question and answer. I'd have thought a breeder would be annoyed if you were on their list and someone else's and so when their puppy was born you'd already got one from somewhere else. Or is it the done thing to inform breeders that you're on other waiting lists too? I'd not want to be blacklisted or deemed a time waster.

[zeta1454]

Is it OK to be on the list for more than one breeder? If a breeder didn't have a pup available, but thought you could be a perfect owner, would they recommend you to another breeder they know or would you suggest they waited for the next litter?


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Most certainly any good breeder would not expect you to restrict yourself to just them from the outset and, if they believe that you could offer an excellent home to a puppy, they will try to put you in touch with a breeder they know. It is highly likely that the best breeders will have a waiting list of potential families for their puppies and, if a litter is smaller than expected or through some tragedy a puppy does not make it, or even if the family are set on a male or a female puppy...it can often be the case that there are some disappointed puppy seekers. As the best breeders are most likely to be part of a network of others whose passion is a particular breed ( through a breed club or through showing), they will have come to know a number of breeders personally and also be able to identify those they trust to rear their puppies well and those it might be better to avoid. So, although someone might want to wait for a puppy from a particular breeder's next litter, it would be their choice and the breeder themselves are unlikely to expect it although they may well prioritise them if it happens to try and ensure they do get a puppy on the next occasion.

I would say as well ( just as an aside ) that many of the most reputable owners of first class stud dogs are also responsible and careful when it comes to breeding issues, being knowledgeable about pedigrees and inbreeding, concerned to protect the integrity of any breeding via their dogs, will not just accept anyone to use their stud, frequently will not expect payment for the dog's services until it is certain that a healthy litter of pups have been born, and will offer a mating on a subsequent season if something goes awry and the mating is not successful.

That's a very interesting question and answer. I'd have thought a breeder would be annoyed if you were on their list and someone else's and so when their puppy was born you'd already got one from somewhere else. Or is it the done thing to inform breeders that you're on other waiting lists too? I'd not want to be blacklisted or deemed a time waster.

I suppose it is up to you whether or not you do want to tell a breeder that you are on other waiting lists but in our experience it is expected that a family looking for a puppy would be in contact with more than one breeder. However, I do think that ( whether or not you want to inform them that you are on other lists) it is important to let those breeders whose lists you are on know as soon as possible if you do get a puppy from elsewhere as it gives them the opportunity to contact those who may have been hoping for a pup from them but had not thought it would happen due to there being a small litter born or just too long a list etc.

It is always a balancing act trying to be as fair as possible to both breeder and puppy seeker but, as all experienced breeders will know, it is impossible to predict exactly how many puppies will be born and whether all will survive so, if you confine yourself to one breeder you may find when the time comes that that particular breeder through no fault of theirs cannot offer a puppy after all which puts you back to square one in your search. Certainly good breeders, as I mention above, will usually do all they can to help a disappointed family by recommending a good breeder they know who may be able to help but this may not be result in a puppy being available at the optimum time for the family.

Although some breeders may be annoyed when they contact a family to offer a puppy only to be told at that point that they have got a puppy from elsewhere after being on their list, but this is in all likelihood due to not being informed until that moment rather than that the family were on other lists initially

[Cam2]

when we were looking for a pup last year we were on several breeders lists, (the litters were all due several months apart)
and I informed them from the start that we were on other waiting lists too. We found that the breeders in question were all ok with that.
As soon as we knew who we were getting our pup from we immediately contacted the others and asked to be taken off their waiting list.

[Grice]

when we were looking for a pup last year we were on several breeders lists, (the litters were all due several months apart)
and I informed them from the start that we were on other waiting lists too. We found that the breeders in question were all ok with that.
As soon as we knew who we were getting our pup from we immediately contacted the others and asked to be taken off their waiting list.

Sounds like the fair thing to do. Congrats on your pup

[Grice]

I suppose it is up to you whether or not you do want to tell a breeder that you are on other waiting lists but in our experience it is expected that a family looking for a puppy would be in contact with more than one breeder. However, I do think that ( whether or not you want to inform them that you are on other lists) it is important to let those breeders whose lists you are on know as soon as possible if you do get a puppy from elsewhere as it gives them the opportunity to contact those who may have been hoping for a pup from them but had not thought it would happen due to there being a small litter born or just too long a list etc.

It is always a balancing act trying to be as fair as possible to both breeder and puppy seeker but, as all experienced breeders will know, it is impossible to predict exactly how many puppies will be born and whether all will survive so, if you confine yourself to one breeder you may find when the time comes that that particular breeder through no fault of theirs cannot offer a puppy after all which puts you back to square one in your search. Certainly good breeders, as I mention above, will usually do all they can to help a disappointed family by recommending a good breeder they know who may be able to help but this may not be result in a puppy being available at the optimum time for the family.

Although some breeders may be annoyed when they contact a family to offer a puppy only to be told at that point that they have got a puppy from elsewhere after being on their list, but this is in all likelihood due to not being informed until that moment rather than that the family were on other lists initially

That's a very good point about needing to be on more than one list to ensure you can get a puppy when the time is right. If things go how I'm planning, we'll have a small window where it'd be best to get a puppy because of timings of school holidays, etc and work. It totally makes sense to be open and when you secure the puppy for you, to let the others on your list of breeders know immediately so they can inform someone lower down on their list that there's a puppy available. Thanks for explaining it so clearly