Pre-Puppy Advice (For Outside)

[littleeng]

Dear all, we are set to pick up our Mini-Schnauzer puppy quite soon. We live in an apartment with several communal garden spots. I had intended to train the dog to do its business outside and to let him have enough daily time out on the grass. However, some on the internet are recommending not to let him even touch a bit of grass at all until his final vaccinations are fully completed (he will be 8 weeks when we collect him, so it will be several weeks away until his next vaccination). This seemed a bit odd and mean to me. Being in London, however, we do have the occasional fox rummaging in the bin areas, some of which are near to the open grass, and I understand they can bring some dangerous nasties like Parvo. Our neighbour puppy trained their French Bulldog puppy outside just fine, so I was wondering what the Schnauzer community thought here and if anyone else puppy trained in an apartment with advice?

[zeta1454]

This is a difficult one to advise and really is going to be your decision based on your assessment of the risk. Young puppies whose immune system is not fully mature can be the most vulnerable to disease and therefore the most cautious approach is to wait until your pup has completed their vaccination schedule. However, unless a puppy is exposed to contaminated ground (grass or pavement where an infected dog (or fox) they are not necessarily going to become ill. We rehomed a six month old puppy that had been living in a country environment with a number of other dogs and who had not been vaccinated until just before she came to us and she was perfectly fit and well despite being out and about in the garden and land at the home, unvaccinated. The likelihood of infection from foxes in your neighbourhood may be remote but could never be entirely discounted and it would certainly be better if you had access to your own garden rather than a communal area. We have no reservations about letting our puppies out in our own garden with our dogs and theoretically the possibility of disease from wild sources (birds, rats etc) but it really is a risk assessment you will have to make for your own puppy as there are many variables to be taken into account from genetics, breeding, good health of the puppy as well as the environment.

Do you know whether the breeder will have the puppies outside before you pick him up? If he is not used to going outside, it may be easier to delay taking him into the communal gardens until he has completed his vaccinations than if he is used to going outside. As the weather is not that good anyway at present, he may not suffer too much by waiting. Our very first miniature schnauzer puppy, twenty years ago, was trained on newspaper by the door to the garden as she came to us in January and the weather was far too cold to let her outside at the time. She transitioned to using the garden once the weather improved just fine. Nowadays there are a range puppy pads for indoor house training (rather than newspaper) if you do prefer to be cautious and not let your puppy outside.

You may get more advice too from anyone who has house trained a puppy in an apartment.

[littleeng]

...

Thank you for your comment. The breeder has indeed let them outside fairly often as they are located in the countryside. I have to say it is also all new to me having come from the Yorkshire Dales where the dogs I grew up with were also free roaming. As it stands, we have puppy pads and I will consult my vet to see their recommendation. One of our gardens is more isolated though, and when I asked my neighbours how they were raising their pups in London (over the last few years - we've been thinking about this for a while) they all seemed to think training early on our grass was just fine. There are only some 3 dogs in the complex and they rarely visit our garden now they are grown up and frequent the larger parks.

[AnnieMoon]

I'm raising my puppy in an apartment in Madrid but I can't help you too much as our breeder gives away his puppies at 12 weeks old and with all their vaccinations. I can tell you he recommended us to keep Harriet inside home for another two weeks at least, and we didn't. As she had all her vaccinations done, we just wait a few days and it was because of the weather. Harriet have never learnt to use the pads, she just chewed and ate them, and it's easier to clean a pee or a poo than a shredded pad, trust me. So we needed to start outside training as soon as possible. I knew there was a risk, even with all the vaccinations done, so for the first days, as the walks are pretty short, I spent the whole walk watching at her like a hawk, so she wouldn't eat anything.

[zeta1454]

It made me laugh reading Annie's post re the puppy pads being shredded as that is very true and can certainly happen with the older puppies who want to toilet outside. Personally I would not worry about training a puppy on grass as long as it was away from public areas where many dogs are exercised.

There is a link here to an article from a vet practice in Yorkshire re Parvovirus which was posted a year or so ago when there was an outbreak of the disease locally. It does have useful general information:

http://www.towerwoodvets.co.uk/local-parvo-risks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[littleeng]

Thanks all. Our vet also says it's preferable to keep him indoors for two weeks before his second jabs at least. We'll station a potty area by our French doors and hope he — miraculously — associates the puppy pads with outside!

[Robin black mini]

I would take your 8 week pup out and about using a carry bag,getting him socialised from the get go....let him down to pee etc in the areas less dog trafficked and you should be fine,
Don't forget he has his mothers antibodies from the start...
He should be fine around ten weeks to visit the normal routes on the ground ,once his 8 wk vaccs have established their effect.

[zeta1454]

I agree with Jo that it is vital that you get your puppy out and about as soon as possible from a socialisation point of view. This is so important as you have such such a small window of opportunity to introduce your pup to sounds and sights and smells of your locality and a range of different people and experiences. Whether or not you decide to put the pup down on the ground to toilet, you must not keep them indoors until their vaccination course is completed. With a small breed puppy, it is easy to carry them in your arms or in a puppy bag/sling or use a pet buggy

[littleeng]

Thank you all. I wonder what the risk would be on our immediate pavement as opposed to the grass? We plan to socialise him from the get go. Although we only have several "doggy dates", we'll be taking him to others, having children over and carrying him through our parks to our local pub(s), among other spots. It can be very loud outside in London, so hopefully he will get used to it.

[zeta1454]

Thank you all. I wonder what the risk would be on our immediate pavement as opposed to the grass? We plan to socialise him from the get go. Although we only have several "doggy dates", we'll be taking him to others, having children over and carrying him through our parks to our local pub(s), among other spots. It can be very loud outside in London, so hopefully he will get used to it.

Re the pavement being less risk than the grass for toilet training, it is difficult to say as a busy area where many dogs and people are going about could be regarded as more risky simply from the increased possibility of one carrying a virus/ bacteria compared to a confined grassy space used by very few.

Parvovirus is the one disease that is most often implicated in puppy illness but the puppy does have to ingest the virus by licking or eating e.g. Infected faeces from an animal that has the illness. It can be carried on paws or on people's shoes. As puppies may eat grass there could be an increased risk if and only if an infected animal has been in that particular place but it is probably minimal.

Personally, I would keep paws and shoes cleaned with a pet safe disinfectant after going outdoors; avoid busy dog walking areas and keep a close eye on a puppy when down on the grass to make sure they are not eating anything. It would seem a shame to go backwards with the house training if it has already started at the breeder's home and the happier and healthier the puppy, the less likelihood they will contract a disease if sensible precautions are taken and the higher the chances that they will make a speedy recovery with the appropriate medical treatment if they did become ill.

[Robin black mini]

Thank you all. I wonder what the risk would be on our immediate pavement as opposed to the grass? We plan to socialise him from the get go. Although we only have several "doggy dates", we'll be taking him to others, having children over and carrying him through our parks to our local pub(s), among other spots. It can be very loud outside in London, so hopefully he will get used to it.

We live in the Italian countryside,in the foothills of the n alps...tractors,cattle,herons flapping up on the fields,wild boar on occasion,and so on...
I travel into the city at least once a week to get the dogs into the bustle of Turin's city traffic,meet city dogs ( a different mentality) ,cross six lane traffic ,visit the mall etc...
In the end the dogs are bomb proof..
I'd treasure London's opportunities to make your pup well rounded...in his carry bag to start, he will view all the bustle,but feel safe..and as you get him walking he will have seen it all and find it easier to take it in his stride.
Don't worry,this is a tough little dog,he will follow you wherever you lead...once the vaccs kick in,the world is your oyster..you are going to love the contained size ,with the heart of a lion.

[littleeng]

Thanks all. He's already fitting in very nicely.