Potty Training Help (long)

[My2Cents]

We have a 6 month old mini schnauzer that we got at 7 weeks old, 2 days later he wound up at the vet hospital with parvo . Apparently, the backyard breeder(which we didn't realize) knew his puppies were sick. Anyways, I mention this incase this effects Fritz current behavior. We were housetraining the first month, but it became cold here and my husband got tired of waking every 2 hours to take Fritz out (he does hard labor and needs his sleep). I take care of a baby so waking every 2 hours is not ideal. So we settled on pee pad training since our dog is a mini. He did well for a long while, and when he would go to make a mistake a simple hand clap and no would stop him and we would put him on the pee pad.

Flash forward to today, he uses the pee pad 90% of the time, and sometimes he will literally pee right by it . He no longer gives clues that he is about to go, he simply goes into position, and hand clapping and saying no has zero effect. Even if we pick him up to bring him to the pad he will simply continue going, so now we just let him finish, and if he was out playing we end the session and put him back in the pen. I must add he will quite happily soil his pen with pee and poo, even going so far as to soil his bed or bedding, and even his toys

I understand that scientists claim dogs have every single emotion...except of course one that promotes revenge. I disagree. I have searched "revenge peeing/pooing" for awhile now, and adding that to our experience I feel that our puppy is now doing this the majority of the time. We have noticed he will pee or poo (mostly pee though) in the pen or in the cage after being put back from playing. It doesn't matter how long he was out playing...3, 4, 5,even 6 hours of playing. He will hold his business in that WHOLE time and as soon as we put him in he simply lets loose. There is zero chance it is an accident as the pen is small enough for him to walk the couple of inches to the potty pad. Also he routinely holds in his pee and poo for up to 10 hours or more, so I am not buying it as an accident. Sometimes he will whine to get out and when we don't let him....well he pees on the floor. Sometimes he will then step in it, when he generally avoids it.

I understand it is possible he can still make mistakes, but it has gotten to the point that I can read him like a book. I can tell when he is being difficult and when he does his revenge pee, he WILL do it again. Which means the accidents are the days he does not repeat the behavior. To try and stop this we want to train him to go back outside. But he has no "regular" schedule of peeing or pooing, and sometimes can only go about 2-3 times a day. He also no longer displays cues of needing to go. He likes to rip his pee pads, but even worse he loves to sit and nap on it, sometimes right on top of the pee. I have even caught him laying next to the poo once .

We have tried small crate training again, but he pooped twice in it and peed, so we figured he didn't care. Sometimes we lock him in the cage(it is too big) and let him out after a few hours, but that doesn't work because he'll just pee or poo in it. We turned it into a puppy apartment, but he would pee off the pad. We have tried just leaving him in the pen, with the most recent results. NOTHING is WORKING. Plus he is bigger than we had hoped for, so now I really want him doing his business outside.

He is also a nervous dog, he HATES walks so much he nervous poops in under 5 minutes, and refuses to walk. I am at my wits end, please give me advice! we are also first time dog owners!

TIA

[Schnauzer Sam]

Hi Julia,

A puppy is very demanding, especially in the early stages and to crack the potty training requires a methodical approach to give him a fair chance of succeeding with it.

Undoubtedly, if he came from a backyard breeder then you have a more challenging time than a dog who was raised in a home as the breeder will have started socialisation and other basic training. That said, schnauzers are usually quick to catch on to the behaviour we want from them as they love to please us.

I think Fritz is confused about what you want from him as you started taking him outside then switched to pads and now want him back outside again.

I think you need to get back to basics with him, pop him on a lead and take him out to where you want him to use. Do this every hour or so and use a word you want him to associate with going to the toilet and reward him with a small treat when he goes. If he doesn't perform bring him back in without scolding or rewarding him and try again in 30 mins. If he goes in the house, immediately take him out on the lead to use the area you want him to use.

If you can't put this work in then you will find it difficult to house train him and maybe you should consider whether it's possible that you just do not have the lifestyle at the moment to give any puppy the regular and consistent attention that they need.

[zeta1454]

As said above, the worse the start a puppy has in life, the more challenging it will be to train or modify their behaviour and it does need consistent, patient and very regular reward based training to do this.

Many puppies trained to pee pads as young pups will quickly progress to just destroying them as they mature and are able to toilet outside - this is not at all unusual. An adult dog should be toileting outside from a few months old and you really do need to stop using the pads and work on getting him to go outside to pee and poo every time. Undoubtedly there will be accidents in the house initially but you must not punish or scold him - reward for going in the right place instead.

The other problem is that Fritz is coming into his adolescence and often this is the start of a period when he may well forget previous training and, because of hormonal surges, will want to "mark" his territory by peeing on all sorts of objects, furniture etc. The time from six months to a year (or longer) can be challenging for any family with an adolescent puppy however well bred but may well be worse if house training and behavioural issues are not settled beforehand. Adolescence is a phase and dogs do pass through it to mature and become better family dogs from a human perspective but they do need consistent, patient training through this time. The peeing may well be adolescent 'marking' rather than a toilet training issue so will need you to be vigilant to stop him from doing this or it could become a habit - even neutered dogs can continue to "mark" and may be worse if they lack confidence. A "last resort" protective solution to 'marking' could be a belly band but this does require you to check it regularly and change if need be and is not a substitute for house training - it is only to protect furniture etc from being peed on through the day. I guess you are in the US so there is a link here if you have not heard of the belly band but as an example only - I do not know the particular company as I am in the UK:
https://www.bellybands.net

As regards "revenge" peeing and pooing, I think it is difficult to interpret some dog behaviour at times and easy to put a human interpretation on certain actions. I do believe that some dogs can and do react to situations or actions by their humans which thwart or annoy them by a pee or poo wherever they may be but I do not think they would plan or dwell long term on things that upset them. If Fritz whines to go out, I would take him out and, if he pees or poos praise and reward him. If you ignore a signal from him that he needs to go, then he cannot be blamed for just going where he is. Certainly you may find that he might whine to go out and not pee/poo but, as in the advice above, bring him back in and keep him in his pen until you take him back out 30 minutes later or whenever he signals he needs to go.

I think that much of the difficulty you have with the house training does go back to the poor quality of his early weeks. If the breeder did not offer a toilet area for the puppies from the first weeks and encourage them to go outside as they matured, Fritz may have come to you unaware of the whole concept of not soiling his living / sleeping area or toileting outside. Many puppies will also find it distracting and fun to be out in a garden or yard and forget or be unaware that they must use the opportunity to pee or poo. This is especially the case if they have no adult dog to provide a role model for this. If you have a movable pen which you could set up in your yard/ garden you may find it easier to put Fritz into this outside when you are training him to use the outside to toilet. If he is a bit more confined, it should focus his mind more on what he needs to do and when he has peed/ pooed you can let him have fun and games out of the pen

Puppies (like children) are very hard work until they are fully mature physically and mentally and do need a lot of attention, patience and consistency in training but, if you can give that to Fritz, I am sure you will get there.

[My2Cents]

Thanks for the replies!
When I said he whines to get out of the pen I meant because he wants to roam the house and play, not potty, because he has a potty pad in the pen. So that is one of the reasons why I thought it was revenge peeing/pooing: He whines to get out and play, we don't let him, and instead of walking 2 inches to the potty pad he poos/pees on the floor.

But you both are right about doing his business outside and outside only, it seems using potty pads, while convenient, are set up for failure in the long run. Just a bit nervous to take the potty pad away. I worry about the constant mess lol.

[Robin black mini]

Hello.
You've said a lot about your pup,but very little about your own routine..
If you are at home with a child as well as a new pup , I'd say to make the most of this and combine the two..
I'm not a crate user ,in over 55 years of dog ownership..yet I've had happy ,house trained ,dogs..
I've had two children and combined my pups with child raising..
So from my point of view here goes...
I'd keep the puppy in the kitchen with a safety gate for when he's not supervised..give him a bed,his water bowl etc and regular opportunities to go outside.. I honestly believe these poor pups have had enough of being crated..give him a chance..
Be with him as much as you can..if you see him circle etc..get him straight outside...try to avoid him messing anywhere but the outside,or at worse,the kitchen area..for now...once you have him in a routine these accidents should definitely be less and less common..

Take the pup out on each and every outing you make with the child and pushchair..a mini is the perfect size ,when tired ,to ride in either the shopping tray ,or even with the baby..you say he's very nervous..it's a part of his poor start in life,but doesn't have to be the nervous dog if he is well socialised and taken out and about as much as you can...the pushchair routine may well give him confidence too..
If he's out you must allow him to sniff and walk alongside the pram etc so he will empty his bowel...if he's emptied ,he can't come home and mess the house..
Once he gets into this routine,you'll see he probably will need to poo twice a day...mine do this after their feed and are like clockwork. At six months he should be on two meals a day. He can walk 30 minutes each outing ,two or three times a day..when he's back he will sle p and be much calmer.

My key word with this puppy would be include him.. When you feed the baby,when you walk ,when you want to sit settled.give him a cushion pad at the side of your chair so he can rest but still be part of your gang..id use the word settle..and he will learn this is his time to chill..
If he keeps being shut in the crate what will he learn? Nothing at all..
If you really want him as part of your family,give him the chance to learn what you want..if he's with you you can read his cues when he needs to go outside..use thE word lets go potty and get him our at once...praise like mad when he does the deed..use the words wee wees. Whatever so he connects that he's done well...this will serve you well in the future when it's a winters night and you need him to perform lol..
This is a really bright little breed but he will only develop if you give him a chance and work with him..
Dogs don't have revenge in their vocabulary.....my bet is he is just waiting for the chance to really join your pack and be one of the family.hes had a poor start so may well make mistakes,but if you structure his routine,he will be the dog anyone would want in a few months..at six months he is still a clean slate....".. .dont give up'!!!