Puppy Training
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Please do not discuss breeders or raise issues concerning breeders on the forum. This has created problems in the past and many breeders are not members and unable to defend any claim you may make.
- zeta1454
- Moderator
- Posts: 5140
- Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
- First Name: Leigh
- Dog #1: Magic
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 20 Apr 2010
- Dog #2: Trilby
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 15 Mar 2012
- Dog #3: Pip
- Born: 21 Feb 2014
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Location: North Yorkshire
- Contact:
Puppy Training
Training a new puppy in the family to be a responsive, friendly dog that will not destroy furniture or clothes, won't nip and bite, is 100% reliable at toileting outside and always comes back when called, is everyone's dream. For most of us, it probably is just that for all these things certainly at under a year old but it is a goal to be worked towards and the most important thing needed absolutely is patience. Puppies are baby dogs - they have to learn not only how to behave with other dogs but also how to behave in a way that humans want too and these are two very different worlds in terms of acceptable and expected behaviour and to learn to negotiate both worlds effectively is not going to happen in a few weeks or even months.
There are many myths about training puppies including those which claim to be based on how a mother disciplines her offspring. Sadly, as is the case with theories on wild animal behaviour, much of this originates from puppies raised with their mother in confined and unnatural conditions. Having watched five of our mother dogs with their puppies (9 litters) I have never seen them use aggression or positive "punishment" with their babies. They are extremely tolerant of the very young and put up with a great deal at times but, if it gets too much, they will up and leave. So, for example, if a pup who should be weaned continues to try and suckle causing too much pain, eventually his/her Mum will go out of reach and escape. If mother dogs are kept in confinement with their pups without the option to leave then you may see more forceful behaviours including growling or physical restraint but this is not necessarily a "natural" canine mother behaviour at all. There is an interesting article here on physical training methods:
https://dogdiscoveries.com/scruff-shaki ... iscipline/
The other thing to bear in mind is that, if you want to build a bond of trust and love with your puppy/dog, you do not want to use methods of training which may frighten them or lead them to fear your hand coming close to their head e.g. punishing a dog by shaking, tapping or restraining their head movement. While these methods may have the effect of solving an immediate problem, they can lead to other issues as time passes such as the dog becoming very anxious when being groomed, examined by a vet or even just someone moving to pat or stroke the dog near its head.
The most successful training techniques will always be those based on positive/ reward based methods. These are now used in the police, army, search and rescue and drugs search officers for dog training. Anyone who watched the recent TV series on UK Wildlife Parks will have also seen these methods used to train tigers to show the underside of their paws to the keeper for checking daily, leopards to go into a crate for removal to another site and rhinos to back out of a crate so as not to be coming out horn first when they reach their new home.
Try to ensure that your puppy has little opportunity to make mistakes - whether with toilet training or chewing. Have a playpen and crate for times when the puppy cannot be watched and be vigilant and close by when s/he is out and about.
Have plenty of chew items available to hand and keep some as special treats for using when an extra persuasion may be needed or "spice up" a Kong by smearing some peanut butter or cheese spread on it. Puppies are curious and have short attention spans when young and can almost always be diverted by something novel or more tasty. Make it seem as though they are getting something extra exciting by the tone of your voice etc. I have persuaded a puppy to give up a soggy piece of garden rubbish (treasure to a pup!) by offering an empty cardboard tube or little plastic flower pot to chew on instead. If the puppy is going for fingers or toes, either lift them up gently, facing away from you and offer a toy or tasty chew item or get down on the floor with them and engage in a game. If the puppy is fractious and nipping from overtiredness, put them in their crate or playpen for a nap. Frozen or chilled chew items can also be used to try and ease the pain of teething with young pups.
Try to think of diversionary tactics rather than head on confrontation and they really do often work
Choose your battles! There may be times when whatever the puppy is doing it actually doesn't matter even if you would rather they didn't. If they have run off with an odd sock, are chewing a dropped empty envelope etc. if the puppy is not in danger, the item is not that important then let it go and save your energy for when it really does matter.
Training classes should be the ideal support for a new puppy family but they are a real lottery and it is one of the more worrying aspects of raising a puppy in that a poor training class can actually cause real mental and emotional damage to a puppy (even one from the best of breeders). On the other hand, a first rate training class can do wonders for a puppy whatever their start in life.
I would also mention that poor quality groomers are another potential source of harm not in terms of the look so much as the methods they use when grooming to "control" the puppy or even just how they handle the dogs. The groomer or training class may not be cheap and may look good on a website or advert but anyone looking to enrol a puppy in a training class or taking them to a groomer, would be best sitting in to watch their methods even before they get their pup so as to assess what kind of situation they are going to expose a vulnerable puppy to, before it is too late!
On a lighter note, this is a photo of our Magic taking time out on the dining room table from her over exuberant puppies
There are many myths about training puppies including those which claim to be based on how a mother disciplines her offspring. Sadly, as is the case with theories on wild animal behaviour, much of this originates from puppies raised with their mother in confined and unnatural conditions. Having watched five of our mother dogs with their puppies (9 litters) I have never seen them use aggression or positive "punishment" with their babies. They are extremely tolerant of the very young and put up with a great deal at times but, if it gets too much, they will up and leave. So, for example, if a pup who should be weaned continues to try and suckle causing too much pain, eventually his/her Mum will go out of reach and escape. If mother dogs are kept in confinement with their pups without the option to leave then you may see more forceful behaviours including growling or physical restraint but this is not necessarily a "natural" canine mother behaviour at all. There is an interesting article here on physical training methods:
https://dogdiscoveries.com/scruff-shaki ... iscipline/
The other thing to bear in mind is that, if you want to build a bond of trust and love with your puppy/dog, you do not want to use methods of training which may frighten them or lead them to fear your hand coming close to their head e.g. punishing a dog by shaking, tapping or restraining their head movement. While these methods may have the effect of solving an immediate problem, they can lead to other issues as time passes such as the dog becoming very anxious when being groomed, examined by a vet or even just someone moving to pat or stroke the dog near its head.
The most successful training techniques will always be those based on positive/ reward based methods. These are now used in the police, army, search and rescue and drugs search officers for dog training. Anyone who watched the recent TV series on UK Wildlife Parks will have also seen these methods used to train tigers to show the underside of their paws to the keeper for checking daily, leopards to go into a crate for removal to another site and rhinos to back out of a crate so as not to be coming out horn first when they reach their new home.
Try to ensure that your puppy has little opportunity to make mistakes - whether with toilet training or chewing. Have a playpen and crate for times when the puppy cannot be watched and be vigilant and close by when s/he is out and about.
Have plenty of chew items available to hand and keep some as special treats for using when an extra persuasion may be needed or "spice up" a Kong by smearing some peanut butter or cheese spread on it. Puppies are curious and have short attention spans when young and can almost always be diverted by something novel or more tasty. Make it seem as though they are getting something extra exciting by the tone of your voice etc. I have persuaded a puppy to give up a soggy piece of garden rubbish (treasure to a pup!) by offering an empty cardboard tube or little plastic flower pot to chew on instead. If the puppy is going for fingers or toes, either lift them up gently, facing away from you and offer a toy or tasty chew item or get down on the floor with them and engage in a game. If the puppy is fractious and nipping from overtiredness, put them in their crate or playpen for a nap. Frozen or chilled chew items can also be used to try and ease the pain of teething with young pups.
Try to think of diversionary tactics rather than head on confrontation and they really do often work
Choose your battles! There may be times when whatever the puppy is doing it actually doesn't matter even if you would rather they didn't. If they have run off with an odd sock, are chewing a dropped empty envelope etc. if the puppy is not in danger, the item is not that important then let it go and save your energy for when it really does matter.
Training classes should be the ideal support for a new puppy family but they are a real lottery and it is one of the more worrying aspects of raising a puppy in that a poor training class can actually cause real mental and emotional damage to a puppy (even one from the best of breeders). On the other hand, a first rate training class can do wonders for a puppy whatever their start in life.
I would also mention that poor quality groomers are another potential source of harm not in terms of the look so much as the methods they use when grooming to "control" the puppy or even just how they handle the dogs. The groomer or training class may not be cheap and may look good on a website or advert but anyone looking to enrol a puppy in a training class or taking them to a groomer, would be best sitting in to watch their methods even before they get their pup so as to assess what kind of situation they are going to expose a vulnerable puppy to, before it is too late!
On a lighter note, this is a photo of our Magic taking time out on the dining room table from her over exuberant puppies
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
- Schnauzer Sam
- Member
- Posts: 743
- Joined: 28 Sep 2017, 20:40
- First Name: Sam
- Dog #1: Rosie
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 06 Jul 2017
- Dog #2: Edie
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 11 Jun 2018
- Location: Guernsey
Re: Puppy Training
Leigh,
This is a great framework for puppy training. I trained Rosie entirely by using reward based training and it was so easy. Edie is a more formidable challenge but her training is going really well too. If something isn't working I think - what am I doing wrong?
I find the observation you make regarding the mother "correcting" her pups interesting as I can concur that Rosie shows endless patience with Edie and if Edie oversteps the mark she simply withdraws from the situation rather than "disciplining" her.
Can I also recommend a book by Gwen Bailey called How to train a superpup. She's an internationally renowned behavioural therapist and trainer and all her methods and suggestions are based on positive and reward based training rather than dominance or punishment.
This is a great framework for puppy training. I trained Rosie entirely by using reward based training and it was so easy. Edie is a more formidable challenge but her training is going really well too. If something isn't working I think - what am I doing wrong?
I find the observation you make regarding the mother "correcting" her pups interesting as I can concur that Rosie shows endless patience with Edie and if Edie oversteps the mark she simply withdraws from the situation rather than "disciplining" her.
Can I also recommend a book by Gwen Bailey called How to train a superpup. She's an internationally renowned behavioural therapist and trainer and all her methods and suggestions are based on positive and reward based training rather than dominance or punishment.
Last edited by Schnauzer Sam on 26 Aug 2018, 17:22, edited 1 time in total.
Country Girl at Heart (Molly) 8 April 2003 - 22 December 2018
You're never alone when you own a schnauzer
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Rosie-and-E ... 872588622/
You're never alone when you own a schnauzer
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Rosie-and-E ... 872588622/
- zeta1454
- Moderator
- Posts: 5140
- Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
- First Name: Leigh
- Dog #1: Magic
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 20 Apr 2010
- Dog #2: Trilby
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 15 Mar 2012
- Dog #3: Pip
- Born: 21 Feb 2014
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Location: North Yorkshire
- Contact:
Re: Puppy Training
Sam - great to know Gwen Bailey is still a recommended trainer / author
We used her "Perfect Puppy" book over 20 years ago with our very first miniature schnauzer pup when we were total novices with dogs and found it really helpful.
We used her "Perfect Puppy" book over 20 years ago with our very first miniature schnauzer pup when we were total novices with dogs and found it really helpful.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
- zeta1454
- Moderator
- Posts: 5140
- Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
- First Name: Leigh
- Dog #1: Magic
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 20 Apr 2010
- Dog #2: Trilby
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 15 Mar 2012
- Dog #3: Pip
- Born: 21 Feb 2014
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Location: North Yorkshire
- Contact:
Re: Puppy Training
I recently found this new article by Jane M Lindquist who is the founder of the Puppy Culture programme of raising and training puppies. It is an excellent article explaining the concept of "Manding" where puppy training is concerned and the benefits of finding a breeder who uses this method with their litters as well as giving an insight into the kind of relationship people should be looking for with their puppies and dogs that is based on two way communication rather than dominance or oppression of the dog by the human.
I am (as long term Forum members will know) a huge fan of Puppy Culture and firmly believe that it makes such a difference to puppies raised this way and for their new families if they continue this approach and would always recommend to anyone looking for a puppy to look for a breeder who uses these concepts in raising puppies even if they are not formally following the programme.
https://spring2019.iaabcjournal.org/man ... vhNSQwJGVw
I am (as long term Forum members will know) a huge fan of Puppy Culture and firmly believe that it makes such a difference to puppies raised this way and for their new families if they continue this approach and would always recommend to anyone looking for a puppy to look for a breeder who uses these concepts in raising puppies even if they are not formally following the programme.
https://spring2019.iaabcjournal.org/man ... vhNSQwJGVw
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
- Dawnspell
- Moderator
- Posts: 4712
- Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
- First Name: Alison
- Dog #1: Barney RIP 8/3/19
- is a: White Mini Dog
- Born: 06 Feb 2013
- Dog #2: Jasper
- is a: White Mini Dog
- Born: 25 Apr 2019
- Location: Guernsey
Re: Puppy Training
I've been doing further reading since it's six years since we had a puppy. I would highly recommend a book that has only been out a few months.
Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy by Steve Mann. He's the founder of the Institute of modern dog trainers.
It basically backs up everything you've just said Leigh, and it's written in an entertaining easy read manner. People with older dogs would also benefit from reading as it gives lots of insights into dog behaviour.
Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy by Steve Mann. He's the founder of the Institute of modern dog trainers.
It basically backs up everything you've just said Leigh, and it's written in an entertaining easy read manner. People with older dogs would also benefit from reading as it gives lots of insights into dog behaviour.
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
- zeta1454
- Moderator
- Posts: 5140
- Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
- First Name: Leigh
- Dog #1: Magic
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 20 Apr 2010
- Dog #2: Trilby
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 15 Mar 2012
- Dog #3: Pip
- Born: 21 Feb 2014
- is a: P/S Mini Bitch
- Location: North Yorkshire
- Contact:
Re: Puppy Training
Thank you for the recommendation AlisonDawnspell wrote: ↑06 May 2019, 12:48 I've been doing further reading since it's six years since we had a puppy. I would highly recommend a book that has only been out a few months.
Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy by Steve Mann. He's the founder of the Institute of modern dog trainers.
It basically backs up everything you've just said Leigh, and it's written in an entertaining easy read manner. People with older dogs would also benefit from reading as it gives lots of insights into dog behaviour.
Always great to hear of good new training books
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud
https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
- Dawnspell
- Moderator
- Posts: 4712
- Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
- First Name: Alison
- Dog #1: Barney RIP 8/3/19
- is a: White Mini Dog
- Born: 06 Feb 2013
- Dog #2: Jasper
- is a: White Mini Dog
- Born: 25 Apr 2019
- Location: Guernsey
Re: Puppy Training
It's not just me that thinks it's good. On amazon it has 158 reviews all of which are 5*
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
-
- Member
- Posts: 1592
- Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:28
- First Name: Julie
- Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
- is a: P/S Mini Dog
- Born: 21 Dec 2002
- Dog #2: Otto
- is a: B/S Mini Dog
- Born: 04 Jul 2017
Re: Puppy Training
Thanks Alison. I have ordered it... Otto told me to get it asap ;)
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.
we also need a schnauzer.
- GoEmGo
- Member
- Posts: 145
- Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 15:50
- First Name: Emma
- Dog #1: Montgomery (Monty)
- is a: White Mini Dog
- Born: 22 Dec 2018
- Contact:
Re: Puppy Training
Brilliant post. Thank you Leigh.
Puppy training is going well for Monty. The only thing we don't have access to (or perhaps I haven't looked hard enough) is a formal puppy training class. We went to visit a couple prior to enrolling Monty, but they were very disorganised, chaotic and the training seemed odd. For a training class to refuse to allow you to feed your own puppy their own treats and demanding instead that you must use theirs is odd to me. And a no-no for our boy as he has such a sensitive tummy.
Nevertheless, Monty is in the park every day, walking around the local reservoir or heading to the local canal to meet new people and dogs. He's such a charmer. With people, he falls onto his back in front of them waiting for a belly rub. Dogs, he's more wary of, but he's coming around. Grass is a major issue we have at the moment! He walks across it regularly but for the first two minutes every time he ventures onto the green stuff he goes zoomie crazy on the lead. It's in his mouth, he's leaping everywhere and getting in a right tangle. No barking or growling, just sheer excitement I think! And he puts lots of random stones, twigs, dander, leaves, even a cigarette butt once (yuck!) in his mouth so I'm forever fishing out something. He's bouncy but affectionate!
I'll definitely be checking out those recommended books. I have a Gwen Bailey one which I've read and use, but will order the Steve Mann book today
Puppy training is going well for Monty. The only thing we don't have access to (or perhaps I haven't looked hard enough) is a formal puppy training class. We went to visit a couple prior to enrolling Monty, but they were very disorganised, chaotic and the training seemed odd. For a training class to refuse to allow you to feed your own puppy their own treats and demanding instead that you must use theirs is odd to me. And a no-no for our boy as he has such a sensitive tummy.
Nevertheless, Monty is in the park every day, walking around the local reservoir or heading to the local canal to meet new people and dogs. He's such a charmer. With people, he falls onto his back in front of them waiting for a belly rub. Dogs, he's more wary of, but he's coming around. Grass is a major issue we have at the moment! He walks across it regularly but for the first two minutes every time he ventures onto the green stuff he goes zoomie crazy on the lead. It's in his mouth, he's leaping everywhere and getting in a right tangle. No barking or growling, just sheer excitement I think! And he puts lots of random stones, twigs, dander, leaves, even a cigarette butt once (yuck!) in his mouth so I'm forever fishing out something. He's bouncy but affectionate!
I'll definitely be checking out those recommended books. I have a Gwen Bailey one which I've read and use, but will order the Steve Mann book today
-
- Member
- Posts: 1592
- Joined: 02 May 2017, 11:28
- First Name: Julie
- Dog #1: Oscar RIP Sweety
- is a: P/S Mini Dog
- Born: 21 Dec 2002
- Dog #2: Otto
- is a: B/S Mini Dog
- Born: 04 Jul 2017
Re: Puppy Training
Emma, sounds like you and Monty are having fun. I would recommend you to keep trying for an appropriate puppy class. I had the same trouble finding the right class and I think I missed out on giving Otto the right type of socialisation with dogs. In hindsight, although he got absolutely loads of on leash socialisation with dogs, he needed more close playing and interaction at a young age because he now doesn't seem to know how to greet certain dogs. I think the right training class would have really helped with that or I really wish I had maintained contact with his siblings so that he could have had some play dates.
Man cannot survive with wine alone...
we also need a schnauzer.
we also need a schnauzer.
- mikegoodson1
- Member
- Posts: 714
- Joined: 31 Mar 2016, 11:52
- First Name: Mike
- Dog #1: Oscar
- is a: Black Mini Dog
- Born: 17 Oct 2015
- Dog #2: Sasha
- is a: B/S Mini Bitch
- Born: 23 Sep 2017
Re: Puppy Training
Hi Emma
I would also advise to persevere and find an obedience class that you can both attend (the 'not being able to use your own treats' is extremely weird and I don't blame you for not attending that one). Obviously you can start off at home with your 'sits', 'stays' etc.
The good thing about attending a class is that there are other puppies there to socialise with plus with other distractions there, it really enforces that bond and the training. If Monty can listen to you and do what you want amidst the chaos (albeit organised) in a class, then it sets you in good stead for when out and about on walks with all the outdoor distractions that come with that.
Also you get to meet other puppy owners (of different breeds) and may even strike up friendships with them and walk your puppies together.
One of the best things we did with both Oscar and Sasha was to attend good obedience classes.
I would also advise to persevere and find an obedience class that you can both attend (the 'not being able to use your own treats' is extremely weird and I don't blame you for not attending that one). Obviously you can start off at home with your 'sits', 'stays' etc.
The good thing about attending a class is that there are other puppies there to socialise with plus with other distractions there, it really enforces that bond and the training. If Monty can listen to you and do what you want amidst the chaos (albeit organised) in a class, then it sets you in good stead for when out and about on walks with all the outdoor distractions that come with that.
Also you get to meet other puppy owners (of different breeds) and may even strike up friendships with them and walk your puppies together.
One of the best things we did with both Oscar and Sasha was to attend good obedience classes.