Opinion on our breeder

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fruitphilosopher
Puppy
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Joined: 03 Aug 2020, 14:46
First Name: Jan
Dog #1: Malik
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 0-10-2020

Opinion on our breeder

Post by fruitphilosopher »

Hello all! I’m a new member and still in search of a Schnauzer. I’ve read extensively on here about choosing breeders, but this will be my first time buying a puppy from a breeder and also my first schnauzer, so I wanted to get some opinions on the breeder my partner and I are talking with. 

I also want to note that I will not be naming the breeder and that we are not located in the UK. I hope this kind of post is allowed!

So far we have been talking for a few weeks and visited them once to meet their dogs. Their dogs are definitely very much part of the family and a full-time occupation (they have 10+ dogs). They’re clean and appear well-fed, happy, and healthy - a bit loud when we first came in but settled and loved pats. They retire them after 4 litters and keep all their retired dogs. They’ve been very receptive to the many questions we asked them, and are also available 24/7 for any questions once the pups go home. They also send pups home at 8 wks with all the information the new family needs, sample of their food, some blankets and toys that smell like mum, and a health check from the vet. They’re experienced breeders (20+ years), registered, they test for PRA (all parents clear), don’t test for anything else but offer a guarantee (refund if puppy ends up getting a genetic problem), though they’ve said it has never happened yet. They have a facebook page where many customers post pictures of happy and healthy dogs and everyone seems very satisfied.

However, what I’m surprised by is that they have not asked anything about us. We did offer up some information while asking questions (about our family, lifestyle, residence) and stated that we’re prepared for multiple daily walks and so on, but they don’t know anything about our plans to train, if we’ve had dogs before etc. They seem lovely and I like them, but do you think we should be worried that they haven’t asked much about us? They’ve said they choose based on who seems like they will give the pup a loving family, and that we seem like that type of people. I've just seen so many people say to expect to be grilled, and other breeders had us fill out an application form, so I'm just surprised!

Any opinions are welcome, and thank you in advance! :ymhug:
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zeta1454
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Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
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is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
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Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by zeta1454 »

Hi Jan, it is fine to raise questions re a breeder as long as names are not mentioned and the issues you raise in your post are in a sense of general importance.

Personally I would be concerned if a breeder did not quiz a potential puppy family in depth as, although it is true that instinct and ‘gut feeling’ may play a significant part in deciding which families or individuals are the ones you trust as a breeder, it is important to know to what extent the family do understand the responsibility and commitment of adding a dog to their family, that their lifestyle and home environment is suitable and how much specific knowledge they have of the breed itself in terms of typical traits, grooming needs, potential health issues etc. From my own perspective as a breeder, having invested so much emotion, love and care in the planning, whelping and raising of puppies, I would never just let any go to a family that I had not the greatest confidence had the understanding of the commitment they were taking on, had the time and knowledge to devote to training and being there with them and the kind of home environment in which that puppy would thrive. I could never let a pup go to someone just because they “seemed like a loving family”. I don’t know of other reputable breeders either who would be so relaxed about where their pups were going.

Are these miniature schnauzers? If so, the health tests should be more than just for PRA. This is from the Miniature Schnauzer Club UK website re eye testing:

“Congenital Hereditary Cataract (CHC): Puppies must be eye-screened for CHC, by a BVA/KC Eye Scheme panellist, between 5 & 8 weeks & before they leave the breeder. A copy of the LSF should be provided to the new owner.

Annual eye testing is necessary to identify HC or PRA, as both conditions develop later.

Hereditary Cataract (HC) – sometimes referred to as ‘Juvenile’ or, in the USA, as ‘CJC’ – can only be diagnosed from about 6 months onward, and sometimes even later than aged 2 years. All Dogs must be eye-tested prior to breeding.

Generalised Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) may not appear until 12 months upwards, but may be detected in some breeds at any point between 6 months and 6 years. The earliest reported case in Miniature Schnauzers was in a 3-year old.

To summarise: all Miniature Schnauzers should be eye-tested before being bred from, and then annually, whilst used in any breeding programme, irrespective of age..


The litter of pups should be eye screened for Congenital Hereditary Cataracts and a copy of the litter screening form supplied as well as a copy of the eye screen for HC and GPRA for both parent dogs (within the last twelve months). It is also recommended in the UK by the Kennel Club and all the breed clubs that a DNA test for MAC has been carried out on the parent dogs.

If this is a standard or giant schnauzer breeder, these tests may be different.

The reason why it is important that all relevant health tests are carried out is for more than just reassuring the potential puppy family. A reputable breeder will want to have carried out all necessary tests for their peace of mind that their breeding dogs do not carry a hereditary problem that may only be revealed some years later and to demonstrate their integrity and commitment to the health of the breed generally. This sounds like someone who doesn’t want to pay for testing and of itself that is a worry.

Facebook pages and websites can be helpful sources of information about a breeder but they can also be misleading. I know that several disreputable businesses have websites and FB pages which disguise the reality of their breeding set-up. That is not to say this is the case with the breeder you have been in touch with but just to flag up that online information is not always a reliable source. Some people breeding puppies may be likeable and have been engaged in the business for a long time but it does not necessarily mean they are the most reputable and you then have to really work out if you trust them despite the lack of health tests and no real evidence of concern for who buys their pups.

This is my personal view both as someone who has bought puppies from other breeders and has bred puppies who have gone to new homes and, although I may have high standards in both circumstances, I do believe that the only way to demonstrate a commitment to good breeding and justify bringing these little lives into the world is do everything possible to ensure they are raised to be as healthy and happy as possible within the best environment a family can provide. Not bothering with health testing and being uninterested in the background, knowledge and commitment of potential puppy families would be red flags to me.
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
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Dawnspell
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Location: Guernsey

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by Dawnspell »

I think you'll be surprised by how much info they've gained about you without you saying anything. For starters you've been actively in contact that's a plus, you've also visited another plus. The visit will have told the breeders a lot about you by how you've interacted with their dogs. As you said they've been breeding a lot of years and meeting potential owners.

Just by going out with your own dog you get a feeling about strangers you meet just by how they are with your dog.

I have to say we weren't grilled by the breeders of Barney. I certainly never mentioned anything about training, they did know it was our first dog, but they were happy once we visited that we were suitable owners.

With Jaspers breeder I went overboard giving info on first contact email as I really wanted one of her pups =)) and she ended up meeting myself, My Mum, OH, his brother and wife on a few different visits. So we just ended up talking about dogs, showing, grooming, diets and nothing about us :))
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
fruitphilosopher
Puppy
Posts: 13
Joined: 03 Aug 2020, 14:46
First Name: Jan
Dog #1: Malik
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 0-10-2020

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by fruitphilosopher »

Thank you both for your honesty, that was very helpful.

Zeta1454 - you pointed out both of the concerns I had too. Yes, it is for a Mini Schnauzer :x I'm having trouble finding the equivalent of the Miniature Schnauzer Club website for my country, so I'm not sure what the guideline is here, but I've asked the other breeder I'm in contact with what they test for so I'll compare.

Dawnspell, in retrospect, I think we did give them quite a lot of information through the questions we asked and the way we asked them. I'm still surprised that they haven't asked if we've had dogs before, but you're right that they've probably observed a fair amount about us.

Unfortunately it has been quite hard to find a breeder in our state - I contacted quite a few from the registry and out of the two that responded, the other one did ask for an application form and truly grilled us about our suitability, but isn't willing for us to meet the parents nor the puppies before we come to take one home. I feel uneasy about completely taking their word about where and how the dogs are brought up. Is this an industry standard and we just chanced upon the other breeder that was happy to have us visit? I feel like visiting, getting to know the breeders as well as seeing the dogs' environment and temperament, meeting the puppy before taking it home, are all important for me to know we're making the right choice. Is that more than I should expect? I'll continue reaching out to other breeders and hopefully find the best option.
Last edited by fruitphilosopher on 18 Aug 2020, 03:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Dawnspell
Moderator
Posts: 4710
Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Barney RIP 8/3/19
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 06 Feb 2013
Dog #2: Jasper
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 25 Apr 2019
Location: Guernsey

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by Dawnspell »

I would definitely avoid any breeder who didnt allow a visit until pick up day :-o That doesnt sound good at all,I'd be very suspicious. Were they asking for a deposit as well ?

With our first breeder we werent due to visit until 4-5 weeks old. This involved sea/air travel to UK for us not just a drive down the motorway. My husband was due to have an operation in Southampton we had to be over there for 3 days. The morning of the Op it got cancelled so we had 2 days to kill. The pups were 2 weeks old at this point, I phoned them up and explained what had happened and asked if we could visit the next day. They were only too happy under the circumstances, they could have said no the pups were too young.

Something else to consider is are you wanting to choose your own pup or are you happy for breeder to choose ?
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
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zeta1454
Moderator
Posts: 5136
Joined: 19 May 2011, 16:58
First Name: Leigh
Dog #1: Magic
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 20 Apr 2010
Dog #2: Trilby
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Born: 15 Mar 2012
Dog #3: Pip
Born: 21 Feb 2014
is a: P/S Mini Bitch
Location: North Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by zeta1454 »

I agree with Alison that not being able to visit before picking up a puppy would be a definite ‘no’ .

It is important to have that personal face to face contact in one or more earlier visits for both the breeder and the puppy family to know they feel confidence and trust in each other. I have heard in this country of some people who feel they are ‘top breeders’ expecting potential puppy buyers to accept the information provided on a website or similar but it is not the norm and shouldn’t ever be.

It is often hard to find a breeder who fulfils all that you are looking for but the best way can sometimes be (if you haven’t already done this) to list the priorities you have for a breeder and which of these are necessities to you and which may be compromised on. Distance from your home, waiting time for a puppy, comprehensive health testing, experience of the breeder etc....and many more can all be factors to consider and all may come with their own potential advantages or potential problems. Everyone has different ideas of what is most important to them and it does sound as though you have really researched this well and do have an instinct for what is OK and what is not.

Of course it is important to consider the advice on what to look for when getting a puppy but ultimately you should make a decision that feels right for you with a particular breeder - hopefully they will become a friend (and a knowledgeable one where miniature schnauzers are concerned) to turn to if and when you ever need advice, information or support with your new pup and that is very important especially for a first time mini schnauzer family :)
Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Magic - Silversocks Sharade at Darksprite
Trilby - Darksprite Rosa Bud


https://m.facebook.com/pages/category/C ... 916994967/
fruitphilosopher
Puppy
Posts: 13
Joined: 03 Aug 2020, 14:46
First Name: Jan
Dog #1: Malik
is a: B/S Mini Dog
Born: 0-10-2020

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by fruitphilosopher »

Thanks both of you for confirming - I knew that was strange!
Dawnspell wrote: 18 Aug 2020, 10:31 I would definitely avoid any breeder who didnt allow a visit until pick up day :-o That doesnt sound good at all,I'd be very suspicious. Were they asking for a deposit as well ?
They did not mention any deposit. They're one of the bigger breeders in this area so I think it may be as Leigh says, they might just expect us to trust them based on their reputation. Though the other breeder - the one without questions - did ask for a deposit. It's not huge, about 1/6 of the puppy price. Is that a red flag normally?
Dawnspell wrote: 18 Aug 2020, 10:31 Something else to consider is are you wanting to choose your own pup or are you happy for breeder to choose ?
With a breeder that gets to know us, asks about our lifestyle and makes the choice based on compatibility, I'm happy to let the breeder pick our pup. Not as keen if the decision is based solely on the colour and sex of the puppy as this breeder (no-visit breeder) indicated.
zeta1454 wrote: 18 Aug 2020, 14:51 It is often hard to find a breeder who fulfils all that you are looking for but the best way can sometimes be (if you haven’t already done this) to list the priorities you have for a breeder and which of these are necessities to you and which may be compromised on. Distance from your home, waiting time for a puppy, comprehensive health testing, experience of the breeder etc....and many more can all be factors to consider and all may come with their own potential advantages or potential problems.
This is a great idea. I decided to email every registered breeder within a few hours drive (apart from some with dodgy or off-putting listings) and have finally gotten though all of them. I must say the large majority of responses list the colours, prices and availability date of puppies and don't answer our questions nor ask about us. One pitched me her unnamed friend's pedigree puppies for $4500 AUD :-o However, the few people who did respond thoroughly also asked for us to fill extensive applications and seemed invested and thoughtful. Some questions we hadn't even considered, but definitely should, like what happens to our dog if we meet an untimely end. I'll continue to talk with these breeders and consider different priorities along the way as you suggested, and hopefully all will work out!

Thank you again! This breeder business is complicated but this forum has been a lifesaver.
User avatar
Dawnspell
Moderator
Posts: 4710
Joined: 05 Mar 2013, 18:27
First Name: Alison
Dog #1: Barney RIP 8/3/19
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 06 Feb 2013
Dog #2: Jasper
is a: White Mini Dog
Born: 25 Apr 2019
Location: Guernsey

Re: Opinion on our breeder

Post by Dawnspell »

Deposit is quite normal, I just thought it would be really off if they asked for deposit as well as not being allowed to see pups until pick up day.

I don't know if it's the same where you are but in UK mini schnauzer prices have almost tripled in just over a year from when we got Jasper, due to covid. This is the listings on the pet sales websites where it's mainly back yard breeders and those just in it to make money :(
Our first family dog
Barney - Pocketpark Biali Eyebright 6/2/13 - 8/3/19 Gone too soon
Motto for owners who groom their own Schnauzers -"Never mind it'll soon grow back"
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