Monty the giant mini!

[PinkLemonade95]

Hi all,

So I’ve had Monty for just short of a year now. He’s currently weighing in at 13kg, and while he doesn’t have any fat on him, he’s very strong and generally very big in height/body length.

My question is that while I have no intention of breeding him, out of interest, if he was to breed with another mini, would it be likely that his pups would turn out big like him?


Many thanks

[zeta1454]

Hi Crystal and welcome to the Forum

Monty sounds like a very large "mini" and maybe has some standard schnauzer in his pedigree?

As a general question re breeding and size, there is no simple answer as puppies get 50% of their genes from their Dad and 50% from their Mum and you cannot predict which qualities of each parent may be passed on. A breeding between a small parent and a large one may simply result in some puppies being small and some big.

[Lou78]

Another "giant" mini owner here. Ollie is 14.5kg and about 18ins high. However, he does have a mini's face and not at all the squarer head of a standard. We never saw his parents as got him when he was already a year old. I would have been interested to see his siblings though.

We were never breeding from him so haven't bothered about it. Absolutely love him to bits as he is.

Wish i had a quid for everyone who has said "IS HE A MINI?!" over the years to us though!

[redalert]

Gosh, you mini's are giants. Both my standard girls are the same size and around the same weight as your boys. Because mine are blacks I am often asked what they are because Schnauzers are Salt and Pepper!!!!

[Oscar 12345]

I rather like the larger mini. Went to Crufts this year and the minis are getting smaller. A breeder I talked to says that is what judges are looking for these days. The girls were tiny with really small faces. There was a stunning larger male mini and his owner said that although he was touching the breed std for size he never gets placed in the big shows because he is deemed too large. I guess for us we don't care as long as they are happy and healthy but I hope they don't start introducing skeletal health issues because of the size.

[mikegoodson1]

My boy (Oscar) is on the large side and admittedly he carries some weight or as I like to say, he is "stocky" - a lot of people ask if he is a mini but to be honest, I like him as he is, solid

[jacdales]

My Hamish is 10.5kg and a bit long in the back so he looks a lot bigger than Suzi who is 8kg but like all owners I love him just as he is.

[Oscar 12345]

Stocky - that's the word. I like a stocky schnauzer that just muscles his or her way into your life (and Cornish pasty that I have just had for lunch).

[zeta1454]

I rather like the larger mini. Went to Crufts this year and the minis are getting smaller. A breeder I talked to says that is what judges are looking for these days. The girls were tiny with really small faces. There was a stunning larger male mini and his owner said that although he was touching the breed std for size he never gets placed in the big shows because he is deemed too large. I guess for us we don't care as long as they are happy and healthy but I hope they don't start introducing skeletal health issues because of the size.

I am surprised that there was an impression that judges in the show ring are favouring smaller miniature schnauzers, especially at Crufts where judges are experienced in the breed they judge and are expected to conform to the breed standard. The KC breed standard for miniature schnauzers states:

"Ideal height: dogs: 36 cms (14 ins); bitches: 33 cms (13 ins). Too small, toyish appearing dogs are not typical and undesirable."

Certainly the breeders we know who have been breeding for decades do breed for as close conformation to this standard as is possible and are unlikely to show or breed from any dogs or bitches that are much smaller (or larger) than that quoted. There are, without a doubt, many pet minis nowadays who are larger than this and our girls who vary in height from 1 cm under to a few cms above the breed standard often receive comments on how small they are! It may be that with the greater number of larger size minis around that those who are at or close to the breed standard appear small in comparison

Historically, the appearance of the miniature schnauzer has undergone huge changes since the earliest recorded image:



Somewhat later this picture (sorry about the cropped ears):



And a British champion bitch from the 1960s:



The most notable changes are the beard and furnishings but size has actually increased since the last century with early US miniature schnauzers from the 1930s having a breed standard from as low as 10 inches for females and from 10.5 inches for males.

Of course, outside of the show ring, it really does not matter if a dog is larger or smaller than the breed standard as long as they are fit and healthy and we love our dogs whatever their size and whether or not they conform to the breed standard for showing. The standard is intended to offer a guide to the shape and construction of a dog of a particular breed that identifies the breed but also means they are healthy and not likely to suffer illness or disability as a result of features that are exaggerated. In some breeds that may be questionable but I do not believe it is applicable, thank goodness, to the schnauzer breeds to date

[Dawnspell]

Barney was oversized at 12.5kg and almost 16". His parents were both breed standard size but apparently there was a larger mini in the family history. Barneys cousin that we met was also a large mini.

I've also read that mating 2 dogs from totally unrelated lines so a low breeding coefficient can throw out surprises which is why some breeders will breed grandfather to granddaughter as it stabilises the traits they want. Not a breeder so don't quote me on that.

[zeta1454]

Barney was oversized at 12.5kg and almost 16". His parents were both breed standard size but apparently there was a larger mini in the family history. Barneys cousin that we met was also a large mini.

I've also read that mating 2 dogs from totally unrelated lines so a low breeding coefficient can throw out surprises which is why some breeders will breed grandfather to granddaughter as it stabilises the traits they want. Not a breeder so don't quote me on that.

It is certainly true that the parents can be at (or close to) the breed standard and yet produce a larger or smaller size puppy. We had that happen a few years ago with one of our Affenpinscher litters from two breed standard size parents (of different breeding lines ) where the 2 girl pups were the right size but the one male grew to be noticeably bigger all over - he has grown into a beautifully constructed dog too but could not be shown after one appearance at Crufts as a puppy having grown too big.

It does sound convincing that two unrelated lines could spring a surprise re size or other traits. Certainly traits can be more predictable if the genes of parents are not too diverse or unknown.

[Schnauzer Sam]

You can defintely see the influence of the Affenpinscher in this photo.

[zeta1454]

You can defintely see the influence of the Affenpinscher in this photo.

Yes - the likely link with the Affenpinscher does seem clear in the very early pictures of the miniature schnauzer

[Meger7]

My boy Buzz is 3 years old now and he weighs a whopping 30 pounds! I recently started him in doggie daycare where he gets to run around with other dogs all day long. Hoping and praying this works! His head is so small for his body. Anyone have any other ideas to help with weight? I've been cutting back on food. Sometimes he eats my yorkies food too so that doesnt help.

[zeta1454]

Hi Megan - weight needs to be looked at alongside height and build as some mini schnauzers are very tall so may be heavier than a "breed standard" size mini. However, looking at your photo of Buzz, he would certainly benefit healthwise from losing some weight.

Exercise and diet are the best ways to lower weight and improve health. Do you actually know for certain that Buzz is "running about all day" at the daycare? Some dogs at daycare (or even at home) spend a lot of time just snoozing or lying watching the others so you do need to know for sure that Buzz is having plenty of physical exercise.

Food needs to be adjusted to his ideal weight rather than the weight he is now, measured out to the right amount and make sure that your other dog's food is not stolen by Buzz. If necessary have the two dogs eat in separate places and take up the dishes as soon as each dog has finished their meal.

Try to reduce or cut out treats and check with the daycare that Buzz is not being given (or allowed to scavenge) any food or treats there. The same with friends and family members - make sure that they are not giving out treats / biscuits/ food scraps etc. to Buzz. It can often make a huge difference to a dog's weight just by cutting out treats which can be very high in calories.

You are right to look at exercise and diet as the way to reduce Buzz's weight - there are no miracle cures. It might be worth looking at the specific food you give Buzz as some can be high calorie. We feed our dogs on raw meat and have found they keep lovely and lean on the recommended amount for their size