Breeder won’t send updated pics

[Hugo_minischnauzer]

Hi all, I am new to the forum but have a few questions regarding breeder etiquette. We went to view a mini at 4 weeks old. We decided to reserve him and we were assured we would get updated photos. I realise they are busy but he’s now 7 weeks and we are due to pick him up next week and the breeder refuses to respond to any photo requests. Is this normal? We are so excited to see how he looks but the breeder is just ignoring us. We are paying £1200 for a puppy (our first dog) Am I being sensitive? I just don’t understand what the problem is.

[GoEmGo]

Hi Anj

Monty is our first and only mini, and we chose him after visiting a litter at around 4 weeks also. We were also promised photo updates and received plenty of photos and videos via Whatsapp. We were also welcome to arrange further visits up until pick up day (which we did. Three more times!) I do understand your concern as I think I would have felt the same. I don't think you are being too sensitive at all.

Can you give the breeder a ring to check everything is ok?
Is the breeder an assured breeder with the Kennel Club? Although ours wasn't, they were incredibly prompt when responding to my texts, Whatsapps or emails, sorted the kennel club registration and provided plenty of guidance and advice whenever we had questions.

There are plenty of other, more experienced mini owners, who will be able to advise. They may just be busy, like you say, but a little bit of communication goes a long way. Are you picking your mini up at 8 weeks, so in a week's time?

[Oscar 12345]

Anj welcome to the forum. What I would say is that I have found through my own experience and my friends that if you purchase from a serious show breeder with several litters a year and many show dogs on the circuit that they are not good at sending photos, responding to emails, thanking you for pup updates etc. I wouldn't defend this but just trying to explain. My sister had the exact same problem again with a serious show breeder, very concerning as a future owner but it happens. So if this is the type of breeder then I would be less worried. I would hope that at the least you should get a weekly photo. If you buy from any other breeder then I would be far more concerned albeit there could be some sort of personal problem at the breeder's home that has distracted them from correspondence. If you have their phone number I would give them a call for a quick chat prior to turning up to collect. Hope all goes well.

[Oscar 12345]

Just another thought, is it possible they are not good with the technology??? Another good reason for a call.

[zeta1454]

Hi Anj - you are right to be concerned at the lack of contact by the breeder especially as you have requested updates. Even over 20 years ago ( before the technological revolution of email, social media etc. became commonplace) when we got our first miniature schnauzer puppy from a show breeder she sent us photographs of the puppies which had needed to be developed at a camera shop. Nowadays as mentioned above with Facebook, Messenger, Instagram and email there really is no excuse for not keeping in regular touch with potential puppy families. A number of breeders I know have private Facebook pages where they post regular photos and video clips of their puppies for those who are expecting one from the litter and others stream video-cam footage of the litter. Over the years, we have adopted puppies from five different show breeders and all have been in touch with us during the early weeks with photos and updates.

In our experience, serious show breeders who are having a litter of pups in order to hopefully get a future show prospect will be very attentive to the whole litter as they develop and will want to choose any 'keeper' pup as late as possible. It is highly unlikely they would allow any potential future family to choose a puppy as young as 4 weeks old and usually will assign puppies to families based on those they think are the best match. To be honest, if you have not seen the puppy even in photos from 4 weeks old there is a strong possibility that you would not know at 8 weeks old whether you were getting the actual puppy you had reserved.

Whether the breeder you went to see is a show breeder or not, there is no excuse whatsoever in my view for them not keeping in touch with you and not responding to your requests for updates. Personally, even if I had paid a deposit for a puppy, under these circumstances I would walk away as it sounds highly suspect.

There is a link here to a topic I put up a few years ago when we used to breed minis ( we don't breed them any more).

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=21034

This shows the stages of early development and what you would be expecting a breeder to be doing to raise their litter. If you do decide to take this further with the same breeder, it will give you some pointers as to the questions you would want answering regarding: eye tests (parent dogs and puppies); what enrichment activities and socialisation have been undertaken so far; the personality and temperament of the pup you are hoping to adopt. In addition you should have confirmation that the parent dogs have been DNA tested for MAC (as recommended by the Kennel Club and the breed clubs) and a Contract of Sale detailing the commitment to support and advise if needed throughout the life of the puppy and to take him/her back at any time in their life, if circumstances arise which make it impossible for you to keep them. The puppy is legally required to be microchipped in the name of the breeder, and the paperwork to add your name to the microchip as current owner should be supplied to you along with his or her KC registration papers.

The problem with continuing with an adoption of a puppy from any breeder who has failed so far to keep in contact is the very real possibility that they will not fulfil their obligations towards the puppies they breed and the families who adopt them in terms of support in the future. Although people may think it doesn't matter whether or not the breeder is available for advice in the future, it can be really helpful and important to have the knowledge and input regarding any health / temperament or other issue from those who have raised the pups, have the mother and know the lines from which the puppies are bred.

Do bear in mind that the money paid for puppies are to cover the costs of the stud fee (possibly), whelping needs, veterinary care, health tests, registration and microchipping but also and most importantly the time, care and dedication of the breeder in raising the litter, selecting the best possible homes for the pups and keeping those families in touch with all their development until the time they come to collect them. If the breeder is unconcerned about keeping a potential family informed, do they really care about the future wellbeing of the puppy?

[Oscar 12345]

I think it is worth pointing out Leigh that on the spectrum of breeders you are clearly at the very top. I wish all breeders were like that but they are not. At this stage it doesn't mean to say that there is anything wrong with Anj's pup although there clearly are some warning signs that need to be checked out before the next visit. Your experience with schnauzer pups is completely different to mine, my sister's and several of my friends where we all chose our pups and had very mixed communication from the, as I termed it, "serious show breeder". All our breeders had been breeding for over 40 years. Again, I am not defending the lack of comms, it's just what happened. Doesn't make someone a poor breeder where the health of the pup is concerned however much we want to criticise it. Would I buy a pup from such a breeder (like Otto's or Oscar's again) knowing that the communication was not going to be the best.... without hesitation yes. Just my perspective and hopefully all will be well with your pup Anj.

[zeta1454]

I think it is worth pointing out Leigh that on the spectrum of breeders you are clearly at the very top. I wish all breeders were like that but they are not. At this stage it doesn't mean to say that there is anything wrong with Anj's pup although there clearly are some warning signs that need to be checked out before the next visit. Your experience with schnauzer pups is completely different to mine, my sister's and several of my friends where we all chose our pups and had very mixed communication from the, as I termed it, "serious show breeder". All our breeders had been breeding for over 40 years. Again, I am not defending the lack of comms, it's just what happened. Doesn't make someone a poor breeder where the health of the pup is concerned however much we want to criticise it. Would I buy a pup from such a breeder (like Otto's or Oscar's again) knowing that the communication was not going to be the best.... without hesitation yes. Just my perspective and hopefully all will be well with your pup Anj.

Julie - I do understand that there are different approaches to puppy breeding and did want to cover that somewhat in describing my own experience of getting a puppy from other breeders where communication had never been as poor as the OP described. I didn't mean to suggest that there would be definitely be health risks in getting a puppy from a breeder who was a poor communicator and much can depend on sixth sense and confidence in judging the quality of a breeder by the family looking for a puppy, which often comes with experience. It may be easier to assess the situation certainly in this case if we knew more about how Anj found the breeder and, as you say, more background information.

However, I do still believe that any breeder who is offering a puppy to a new family (and for a four figure payment) should be providing them with replies to questions, updates as regards the progress of the puppy and photos, if visits are not possible, in the weeks leading up to collection. Without knowing how reputable or well known the breeder may be it is hard to judge how much confidence to place in them from our point of view on the Forum but it just rings so many alarm bells to me that a breeder would refuse to send any photo of the litter and the individual puppy for a whole month to a family who are expecting to adopt from them, especially when this is specifically requested. Puppies change a great deal from 4 weeks to 8 weeks of age and it is totally understandable that a family would want to see something of the progress and development of the litter, including the pup they are planning to introduce into the family.

I was only offering my personal perspective as regards 'breeder etiquette' both as a breeder and as someone who has adopted puppies from other breeders over the years. It has been interesting to me to hear some of the experiences of the families and individuals who have had a puppy from us in the past and what has convinced them to choose or reject a breeder with pups available. Everyone has their own 'red lines' as regards what they expect and I don't mean to undermine the validity of your or other people's views on this topic

[Oscar 12345]

Leigh we are on the same page on this.

[Hugo_minischnauzer]

Thank you for all your replies. Just to update you, we are due to collect him this Thursday. The breeder has eventually sent an updated photo (without any message attached) just 3 photos of what we believe to be our puppy. We have no idea if this is the puppy we chose as he’s changed so much. Today my partner messaged to ask what time we could collect him on Thursday and that he had booked the day off work to collect. On WhatsApp she has read the response and yet 12 hours later not responded. My gut instinct is to not go ahead with the adoption. My partner, however, doesn’t see my issue and said she is probably ‘just busy’ but my feeling isn’t a good one. This breeder owns a pet hotel in Cheshire and appears to be genuine (and prior to agreeing to buy the puppy was so friendly and warm) yet as soon as we said we wanted him send a very cold response with her bank details and how much to pay and then nothing else. She has made so many excuses it’s unreal including it being her birthday weekend, the pups were miserable after their microchip, she was travelling to Yorkshire and back for eye testing (I understand this but again, just communicate when possible) My gut instinct is to not go ahead with this sale. I would rather walk away from £200 deposit that spend another £1000 on a pup we have no update on. Alarm bells are ringing and it’s causing so much stress for me because I am so looking forward to our new family member.

[mikegoodson1]

I understand your concerns, honestly, I had a similar experience with the breeder I purchased both my pooches from (same breeder). Not much communication before the sale (other than, like you, bank details etc) but again, they seemed nice enough when we met them (when choosing the puppy and again on collection).

Our breeder was an approved breeder on the KC website and had been visited that year.

We went ahead with both purchases and our pooches have turned into the most adorable dogs you can imagine (hopefully we had some part in that too).

All I would say is, it isn't the puppies fault and once you get your puppy home, you can love it/bond with it/train it/play with it and do all the other fun stuff.

Some breeders, I'm convinced, just breed for the money - I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but maybe your breeder (and mine) are in that camp, rather than the love of the breed.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Oscar 12345]

Anj, you have until Thursday to make your decision, here are some thoughts. Is the breeder on facebook or trip adviser for the pet hotel?? What do people say? Google the name of the hotel look for any reviews. Has she bred before. There is a spreadsheet on Mad About Schnauzers where owners look for siblings. Might be possible to get to the owners of pups from her litters?? The pet hotel must have a phone number so I would call her and share my concerns and ask to see the pup as you have some questions before pick up. Using all the "it's my first dog, I am scared everything isn't ok, hope you can understand, I know you are really busy blah blah." Whatever you do, I wouldn't go to collect with such doubts. When you see the pup on collection, whatever you think, you are definitely likely to take it, your emotion will just overwhelm you. Finally, this is such an important decision for a family member that will hopefully be with you for the next 15 years. You have not bonded with this pup yet, you wouldn't long term regret not taking it because you won't know what you won't know however you could regret taking it so spend every moment you can evaluating/researching whether you are making the right decision for you and your family - don't just worry about it. Good luck.

[zeta1454]

Hi Anj - sorry to hear that things are still not resolved. As others have commented, some breeders who breed and raise puppies well in terms of choosing healthy parent dogs, eye tests etc. may just be poor communicators and regard their litters as "stock" rather than "family". Of itself it does not mean the pups they breed will have health or behaviour issues but it does mean that if someone gets a puppy from this kind of breeder, they may have to accept that there will be no ongoing support and advice once they have adopted the pup and they will have to rely on their own research, online resources and similar if there are any issues with the pup. Raising a puppy as novices can be challenging and sometimes it is hard to know whether a situation you are facing is typical of the breed, normal for the age of the puppy/dog or something to worry about and this kind of scenario is where a supportive helpful breeder is a real bonus.... but may not necessarily mean you would not be able to cope well without it

To add to the advice above, you could try checking some details on MyKC - this resource from the Kennel Club allows you to check certain information about registered dogs. If you have the full Kennel name of the parent dogs you can check their health tests, look at the health test pedigree (details of related dogs' eye tests) and with the mother of the litter check how many pups she has had in this recent litter and whether she has any other litters registered. This may not help with the decision you are facing right now but will give some indication as to the accuracy of the health information* you have been given.

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/mykc/

*Litter eye screening is not recorded though.

It would be helpful if you were able to visit again prior to collection to try and settle your anxiety as I assume you are going to have to pay the balance of the money before you collect the puppy? It is really difficult to advise especially when you and your partner have differing views on the situation.

As regards whether or not the puppy photo you are now seeing is of the same puppy you chose at 4 weeks, I could only say that, as long as the whole litter have been raised with love and care, and all are fit and healthy, it really should not be a worry if you did get a different pup (although it could be annoying to think that has happened). Once you have a puppy in your family he or she will melt your heart and you will never give a thought to whether or not it was the one you picked because they will be 'your puppy' and part of your family for always.

P.S. I will send you a PM too.

[BeeBee]

I know you have now bought your puppy and all will be well, hopefully from hereon. Your life together is precious.

But, my personal view is I would not give a breeder my money who couldn't respond positively to me before I actually got my puppy, as there is likely to be zero chance of that happening once money has changed hands. Someone here suggested money may be the primary motivator, your experiences before and at the point of purchase say that loud and clear to me. I find it upsetting that dogs are seen by many today as commodities to shift. Of course, not all feel like this, but I think your breeder does.

Enjoy your new life together, focus on that now your pup's with you
But don't recommend the breeder to others ;)