The Schnauzer Forum

Grovelea wrote:And I am the third breeder on the Giant Schnauzer list and I am not part of the scheme, I am not a puppy farmer, I just choose not to be part of the scheme
The mother of my pups has more health tests than required by the scheme my pups are reared in my home nd have had their first vaccination
I do not charge for their months worth of food and they are microchipped and insured I am sick of the kennel club frightening prospective buyers into
thinking that breeders who are not on the scheme are bad.

Hi Sue......Really nice to see you popping back in.
As you know I understand a fair bit about your history and what you have experienced as a breeder. I also understand the limitations of the KC but wonder how we would be without them.
For what it's worth, if I was looking for a new pup I would not hesitate to contact you.

Thanks Eddie, to the lady that took the time to explain it all , yes I am aware of the scheme and what it entails
and I agree we do need a Kennel Club, I got my first Giant in 1984 and had my first litter in 1987. and as I said I do above
health testing than what the scheme calls for. I just think we should not be labeled as puppy farmers, and that is what Caroline Kisko
at the kennel club called those who are not members. I am Hobby/Show breeder ..... maybe one litter a year, I am not licensed by the local council
because I don't have enough breeding dogs or have enough litters. and there are many many breeders just like me. But the KC choose to support those who have many more litters than the likes of myself and others.

Grovelea wrote:Thanks Eddie, to the lady that took the time to explain it all , yes I am aware of the scheme and what it entails
and I agree we do need a Kennel Club, I got my first Giant in 1984 and had my first litter in 1987. and as I said I do above
health testing than what the scheme calls for. I just think we should not be labeled as puppy farmers, and that is what Caroline Kisko
at the kennel club called those who are not members. I am Hobby/Show breeder ..... maybe one litter a year, I am not licensed by the local council
because I don't have enough breeding dogs or have enough litters. and there are many many breeders just like me. But the KC choose to support those who have many more litters than the likes of myself and others.

I was just trying to highlight that (wherever it was that Caroline Kisko said whatever she said,) the Kennel Club on its official website does not label anyone outside the Assured Breeder Scheme as a "puppy farmer" and, on the page advising people where to go for a responsibly bred puppy, specifically refers to obtaining one from other responsible breeders outside of the ABS and also recommends Breed Clubs and Societies as sources of information on reputable breeders.

The Kennel Club website states this in regard to puppy farmers:

"A puppy farmer is defined as a high volume breeder who breeds puppies with little or no regard for the health and welfare of the puppies or their parents.
A puppy farmer's main intent is profit. As a result they typically separate puppies from their mothers too early (8 weeks is generally recommended), ignore guidelines about the maximum frequency of litters (the Kennel Club will not normally register more than four litters from any one bitch because of concerns that the current legal limit of six litters per bitch can be potentially detrimental to a dog's welfare), provide inadequate socialisation of puppies, sell puppies through third parties i.e. away from the environment in which they are raised, keep puppies in poor husbandry conditions and fail to follow breed specific health schemes or to apply basic, routine health measures......."

The reason I included the additional information was because this is actually not the requirements of the Assured Breeder Scheme per se but is actually the Kennel Club's view on what any responsible breeders should be doing whether like yourself they choose to remain outside the ABS or those who decide to join it. It is a guide to people looking for a responsibly bred puppy to show them the kind of things they should be looking for or asking about whoever they go to visit to enquire about a puppy.

Personally I do have a number of reservations regarding aspects of Kennel Club policy in general but if Caroline Kisko has stated that all small scale breeders outside of the ABS are puppy farmers, this is clearly not the official Kennel Club view as published on their website guide for people looking for a breeder.

BeeBee wrote:Please do what you can to change attitudes, the dogs need us to make some effort.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and put my two bobs worth in. Although some of us have clashed in the past, please be assured that I despise the puppy farm industry as much as any of you. Don't forget that our "Mouse" (blind) is a product of this despicable industry.
We can write books, highlight it in the forum and shout it from the rooftops but we will never reach Joe Bloggs who decides he wants a particular breed of dog this weekend and goes to one of many websites to source it.
In my opinion the only way to control this industry is to legislate it out of existence but I have no idea how we do that. We can control foot and mouth disease in cattle and bird flu in poultry by legislation and enforcement but because we don't eat our dogs it seems that their welfare is not important.
Anyway, I don't mind being told where I am going wrong but I think we need to apply more pressure to our elected representatives. I know that Wales have made laws but I'm not aware that they have had any effect.

Eddie wrote:
We can write books, highlight it in the forum and shout it from the rooftops but we will never reach Joe Bloggs who decides he wants a particular breed of dog this weekend and goes to one of many websites to source it.

I think that this is a 'Catch 22' situation...if you never tell anyone, how will anyone know?

I agree that the word does not always reach the correct audience. However the snowball effect of sharing, writing and shouting out about the reality of how a proportion of the dog breeding of this world is carried out will eventually create a movement that people cannot ignore, and will hopefully put pressure on those who legislate.

AB2012 wrote:

Eddie wrote:
We can write books, highlight it in the forum and shout it from the rooftops but we will never reach Joe Bloggs who decides he wants a particular breed of dog this weekend and goes to one of many websites to source it.

I think that this is a 'Catch 22' situation...if you never tell anyone, how will anyone know?

I agree that the word does not always reach the correct audience. However the snowball effect of sharing, writing and shouting out about the reality of how a proportion of the dog breeding of this world is carried out will eventually create a movement that people cannot ignore, and will hopefully put pressure on those who legislate.

I think a lot of work is being done working with our MP's by Mark the Vet and I saw tho post on Facebook today by one of my Kent friends:

Good on our local MP Sir Roger Gale justseen the local news addressing the problems with the huge puppy traffic through our ports in backs of lorries. He has long campaigned against this vile trade, and wants the drivers prosecuted to,,,,thats the very least we should be looking at, Hope Julian Brazier MP is just as willing to put his views across in government and stop this ease of crossing, I am meeting him on the 7th July.......

We need to keep spreading the word by talking about the problem and the message does get out there. People who source a badly bred (but much loved) first dog and join our forums and Facebook pages see that their dogs are different and ask questions, their second dog is usually from a much better background.

We all play our part in spreading the word ;)

AB2012 wrote:I agree that the word does not always reach the correct audience. However the snowball effect of sharing, writing and shouting out about the reality of how a proportion of the dog breeding of this world is carried out will eventually create a movement that people cannot ignore, and will hopefully put pressure on those who legislate.

I would really love to think that you are right but I can't think of anything that has been changed for the better in this way.

What's happened to this thread? Big chunks are missing?

BeeBee wrote:What's happened to this thread? Big chunks are missing?

It appears to have been split - further posts are here viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eddie wrote: We can write books, highlight it in the forum and shout it from the rooftops but we will never reach Joe Bloggs who decides he wants a particular breed of dog this weekend and goes to one of many websites to source it.
In my opinion the only way to control this industry is to legislate it out of existence but I have no idea how we do that. We can control foot and mouth disease in cattle and bird flu in poultry by legislation and enforcement but because we don't eat our dogs it seems that their welfare is not important.
Anyway, I don't mind being told where I am going wrong but I think we need to apply more pressure to our elected representatives. I know that Wales have made laws but I'm not aware that they have had any effect.

There are many ways that the industry needs to be tackled. No single one is going to make it better for the breeding dogs of the world. Waiting now for effective legislation is not what I'm going to do, as the Tory government have absolutely no intention to do anything on dog breeding. So, the next 5 years require those of us who campaign and care to individually do what we can to affect puppy buyers. And I don't take a defeatist attitude. I will keep trying to force it into the minds of the puppy buying public using whatever medium I can. Changing public attitudes, by individuals keeping going, even when it's unpopular to do so, is the only way politicians are forced to tackle anything. For campaigners against puppy farming and casual, careless breeding, the problem is several strong lobbies like the status quo. At the root of it all, is money. It's so damned easy to make money from dog breeding.

Maty wrote:

BeeBee wrote:What's happened to this thread? Big chunks are missing?

It appears to have been split - further posts are here viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It makes this thread and the other one now a bit muddly to know where to follow a discussion or post replies.

BeeBee wrote:

Eddie wrote: We can write books, highlight it in the forum and shout it from the rooftops but we will never reach Joe Bloggs who decides he wants a particular breed of dog this weekend and goes to one of many websites to source it.
In my opinion the only way to control this industry is to legislate it out of existence but I have no idea how we do that. We can control foot and mouth disease in cattle and bird flu in poultry by legislation and enforcement but because we don't eat our dogs it seems that their welfare is not important.
Anyway, I don't mind being told where I am going wrong but I think we need to apply more pressure to our elected representatives. I know that Wales have made laws but I'm not aware that they have had any effect.

There are many ways that the industry needs to be tackled. No single one is going to make it better for the breeding dogs of the world. Waiting now for effective legislation is not what I'm going to do, as the Tory government have absolutely no intention to do anything on dog breeding. So, the next 5 years require those of us who campaign and care to individually do what we can to affect puppy buyers. And I don't take a defeatist attitude. I will keep trying to force it into the minds of the puppy buying public using whatever medium I can. Changing public attitudes, by individuals keeping going, even when it's unpopular to do so, is the only way politicians are forced to tackle anything. For campaigners against puppy farming and casual, careless breeding, the problem is several strong lobbies like the status quo. At the root of it all, is money. It's so damned easy to make money from dog breeding.

Maty wrote:

BeeBee wrote:What's happened to this thread? Big chunks are missing?

It appears to have been split - further posts are here viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It makes this thread and the other one now a bit muddly to know where to follow a discussion or post replies.

This thread had gone miles off course from the original which was simply an information post to explain to those who were unaware of the Assured Breeder Scheme what it entailed and what to expect from a breeder who was a member of the Scheme with relevant updates on the Scheme as they occurred. It was always intended as simply an information post and not necessarily any more than that as the issues around how it is administered and whether or not a breeder might or might not want to join the Scheme could very easily and often were discussed in depth elsewhere. Inevitably debate on the ABS did happen on the thread but just recently posts have been added that have absolutely no relevance whatever to the Assured Breeder Scheme and should really have been posted as a separate topic if people wanted to discuss imported puppy farmed dogs or how some people go about getting a dog.

I tried unsuccessfully last night when very tired to split this thread at a point where it was not going to interfere too much with the ongoing chat but made a bit of mess of it for which I apologise but I do think that for topics to be of any use to people in the future looking for them, (whether they are debates on puppy farming or the hopelessness of individuals who do not care where they get a dog from..or an explanation of the Assured Breeder Scheme ) these issues do need to be in a place and under a title that makes sense which was not happening last night with the chat on the Assured Breeder Scheme thread.

In an effort to keep people up to date with the evolution of the Assured Breeder Scheme as requirements and commitments are extended and adjusted, I am adding some of the recent changes /information regarding the ABS as of December 2016.

The most recent changes are outlined here:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/news/20 ... m_content=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The full requirements of membership can be read on this link along with details (in italics) of the ways that the ABS Assessors / Kennel Club will check that a member is complying with the requirements:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/7 ... andard.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Members pay a fee of £60 per annum and inspections are carried out at least once every three years but can be done at any time. Certificates are issued for a period of three years, to members who have passed an inspection but will be dated from the time of the inspection. So if a breeder had a certificate due to expire in March 2017 but had an assessment early in November 2016, their new certificate would expire in November 2019 ( not March 2020).

Assessment visits can last up to 4 hours at least and involve written, verbal and photographic evidence ( photographs taken by the Assessor during their tour of the premises/home) of compliance with the Scheme. Assessors are experienced "dog people " - trainers, breeders, owners of many years with extensive knowledge and understanding of best breeding practice.

As mentioned previously for anyone considering buying a puppy, do read through the requirements of the Assured Breeder Scheme and check how closely any breeder you visit complies with these standards. Whether or not the breeder is actually a member of the ABS, these requirements are the standard that anyone breeding puppies should be reaching...and if the breeder is actually a member of the Scheme and is not complying, then let the Kennel Club know.

As stated on the Kennel Club website, one requirement of the Scheme is that members must provide advice to new owners on the following important topics: 

Socialisation information
Exercise information
Breed features and characteristics (Information about the breed)
Training information
Feeding advice (Diet Sheet)
Grooming information
Worming regime (when puppy was last wormed, product used and when next worming is due)
Immunisation regime (what vaccinations (if any) have been done or what you would recommend)
Copy of the Contract of Sale
Puppy's microchip number.

These are such basic requirements that all breeders should be fulfilling and yet, from posts on the Forum, it seems that even this basic information is not being provided to new puppy families in many cases even though it is so important for the future well being of the puppy. The start in life that a puppy has will affect its future both with regard to health and behaviour and the more responsibly a puppy is raised and the more support a new family have from the breeder, the better for the puppy, his / her new family, and the breeder themselves.