Reactivity - Should I hope?

[Moussie]

Hello everyone!

I'm Mary, currently leaving in Greece. I've been reading tips and problems here a few months now. I introduced Moussie and I a few days ago but I feel that this issue should be addressed in a separate thread.

Moussie is my 7 months old baby. She is loving, curious, really intelligent, a really expressive lady and unfortunately... super reactive.

As I referred in my previous thread we just started our second training trial. The first trainer was a really bad choice as during her 4th session brought us a "chocker" to put around her neck in order to "control her excessive barking" cause "she needs to understand that this behaviour is not allowed" .

Well, after ending training with this one, we had our first session with a positive reinforcement trainer.

About the issue...
Moussie is reactive to everything! Dogs, cats, windy weather that makes everything move, people, of course little kids!
She barks when hearing sounds outdoors or in the house.

She barks almost all the time during her walks especially at the beginning of the walks. If I walk her on a place that triggers like the above do not exist she calms herself after a while. Chicken bites help-thank God!

Her body feels very tight when out. Gives me the feeling that she is always ready to "kick some @ss". After watching closely her reactions, i know now that she fears all of these... Except people!

Her people barking is her way to say hello or draw the attention. She's really friendly with most people although she sounds aggressive.

My question is... is reactivity an issue that can be improved? Should I hope?

Everyday life with a reactive dog is really difficult. I was hoping to share many aspects of my life with her but right now seems impossible.

What's your experience?

[zeta1454]

Hello Mary - yes, reactivity is an issue that can be improved and I am sure with patience and constructive help from the new trainer you will see Moussie become more calm and less barking

A couple of things to bear in mind are firstly that Moussie experienced a frightening situation with the first ‘trainer’ you approached who suggested harsh treatment methods to control her which may have made her even more anxious (but should ease with time as she becomes more self confident). Secondly, she may well be going through her second ‘fear period’ which is a common and natural phase in a dog’s adolescence when even with the most well socialised and laid back dog can suddenly become nervous and spooked by all sorts of everyday objects and situations. There are a couple of links here with more detailed information about fear periods which you may find helpful:

http://dogcommunication.co.uk/suddenly- ... cent-dogs/

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/train ... r-periods/

There is also a very good book about living with a reactive dog and how to work through this and online resources to go with it if needed although the book itself is easy to read and very helpful:

https://www.yourendofthelead.com/

I am sure other Forum members will also be able to offer you personal experiences and advice as well but do not worry that this is an impossible task even if it seems so just now. Moussie is very young and with your love and care and positive training advice, she will develop into a lovely companion dog I am sure. It is very positive that she is friendly and happy with people too

[Dawnspell]

Yes it can be improved Jasper is proof of that, although he's never going to be a bomb proof dog that can handle everything that is thrown at him.

Think about making her world a bit smaller for the time being so you can manage her environment. This could mean not taking her for walks away from the garden if they are too stressful for her.

You can build her confidence at home by playing games. A good one is making use of everyday items cardboard boxes and packaging are perfect. Put them on the ground and toss treats or her kibble into them so she has to root about to find them. You can up the difficulty as her confidence grows by putting things in that make a noise (this will help with her noise reactivity teaching her noises are not bad) such as plastic bottles, tins, things that rattle.

What has your new trainer suggested ?

Does she like being stroked by strangers when she gets up close ?

[Sandie1]

I would say do not give up at this stage. Moussie is still very young at 7 months and so many things do change as they get older. It sounds as if you just need to put confidence in someone who can help you, hopefully in this new trainer you have started working with. Once you have more confidence in yourself, you will feel better able to help Moussie. As Alison says, above, just playing with her and doing easy short exercises at home can help to build a bond with your dog that will strengthen over time. Your dog then trusts you more as time goes on and will begin to look to you to help get her past any stressful situations that arise. Once your bond is strong you will feel able to tackle anything together! Work on building this and be patient and this will come.

My mini is now so much better at 9 months than she was at 7 months and actually wants to go out on walks now, which seemed impossible a few months ago. I was recently able to walk her around a crowded marketplace! She loves food so that helps, I reward her often and talk to her, and can now ask her for a different behaviour if she starts to react to something. For example I will get her attention back on me then maybe ask her to sit and reward and praise her heavily whilst the scary person/dog/situation has passed. I have found that if your dog has a really good response to her name this helps enormously..

My last mini was scared of many noises, we just had to try not to react ourselves and act as if everything was normal. There were some noises we could not overcome, mainly if the smoke alarm ever sounded, so we just had to accept that one. Dogs are so very much more clever than we know, and they certainly pick up on any anxiety from their owner so you must remain calm and confident yourself in all situations.

Keep working at it!

[Moussie]

Hello everyone!

Thank you for your advises!

Downspell, Moussie loves people! Even when she barks just say hello people! Look at me! Pet me!

When a person approaches she is all kisses and hugs.
We had a lot of people coming at home to see her do I think this really helped her to feel at ease with people.


So, we started with a positive reinforcement dog trainer as I told wrote a month ago but things went out of control. She got worse. More barking, lunging, pulling. And the barking in the house... Oh my god!

So during a discussion with a guy we know another trainer was mentioned. 35 years of experience. Dog trainer that works much with police dogs. It's been three years he came back from USA. We met and after having a few things done to help Moussie feel at ease with his German shepherd, he let them in the garden. First on leash, and then off leash

I was terrified!

Well she was bathing A LOT LESS and then... She stopped and starterd playing with the GS!

Since then we had a few meetings. Moussie 's self esteem is better. She is still a work of progress but I hope we'll get there. Or somewhere better at least

[zeta1454]

That sounds really positive. I am sure you will get there
Moussie is still very young and learning all the time

[Moussie]

Hello everyone! Im back after 1.5 month having not that good news. The second trainer turned out to be a "balanced dog trainer" which means that eventually he put Moussie into similar situations to the first one.

That made me leave my second try and meet another one which uses only R+.

I'm going to be honest guys. Im really disappointed. I don't know what to expect anymore. When "corrections" went out of the table, Moussie started barking to everything again! Even her barking while in the house got far worse than before!!! I think that she feels that everything is a threat which she needs to share away with her high pitch barking!

And the looks we are getting... Oh Gosh... The comments... Don't get me started...

Some days are unbearable. My husband lately asked me "what have we done?"

Because it's just so difficult! I feel like this wastes my whole energy. Im thinking more about her and her "issues" and less about me, my relationship, my personal life...

After discussing with Downspell I bought a mini course in absolute dogs. Really hope to see even the slightest progress. I would like to know that games helped Jasper the most!

I feel like there's no solution after having invested so much time (and money!) But deep inside I know that she needs time.
Its just that done days are so damn difficult

[zeta1454]

Hi Mary, I am so sorry to hear that things are not improving for you - or even getting worse. I do wonder whether Moussie (and you) are becoming over-loaded with this effort to train her out of barking and if you both need a break to re-establish your relationship as it was previously.

Bearing in mind that miniature schnauzers are vocal dogs - they do bark especially when they are excited; as a warning and for a variety of other reasons too! Added to this Moussie is going through her adolescence when all kinds of hormonal changes often lead to puppies failing to respond well to training, more likely to react to triggers by barking and, even in calm and well trained dogs can mean a temporary change to unwanted behaviours.

Moussie has been through a great deal of challenging experiences with the various training methods being used with her, some of which have clearly distressed her due to the trainer using ‘punishment’ rather than positive reinforcement. Your earlier posts described her as a loving, friendly little dog who enjoyed meeting people and had a loving relationship with you. These are the positives you need to concentrate on for now and try to reinforce/ rebuild these good traits. Don’t force her into situations she is uncomfortable with and try for a while to avoid those which are challenging for her. Do you have any enclosed dog fields /play areas which you could hire for her to have some unrestricted play with no other dogs around? Are there any friends or relatives with a friendly dog that Moussie could form a bond with to play at your home or theirs? Do you have outside space where she can play rather than taking her out in busy places for a while? There are many different enrichment type games you can play with a puppy without needing to take them out and about, such as scent games - hiding tasty treats around your home and garden for her to seek out or Nina Ottosson type challenge toys:
https://www.nina-ottosson.com/

A search online may give you more ideas too.

Training a puppy does take time and can be frustrating and emotionally draining on you and also on them and this is not to suggest that you give up on trying to calm Moussie when out and about but sometimes we all just need some time and space to settle our minds and forget the strain of trying to solve challenging situations. Spend some time at home enjoying yourself with Moussie, concentrate on things you both love and let her have some calm time when she is just being a puppy and not under pressure to try and seek your approval through specific training exercises.

P.S Just to add to this, I noticed you mentioned about a trainer being experienced with training police dogs /German Shepherd dogs. If trainers are from a background of working with dogs that have been bred over centuries to co-operate with humans by herding, guarding or hunting, they will be a totally different type of dog to those who have been bred as watchdogs and ratters. The latter are bred to be independent minded, act on their own initiative, and do not look to humans to direct their behaviour. The training methods must not only be reward based but also engaging for these type of dogs and unless you have their attention and trust the training is bound to fail. Miniature schnauzers as watchdogs and ratters by breeding fall into this category and training designed for working /herding dogs is not going to work well with them.

[Dawnspell]

What helped with Jasper while he was learning the games was managing his environment for him so he could make better choices and try to set him up for success.

We work from home he was coming up to 2 years old when I first started games based training. While we were in the office he could anywhere he liked, if it was warm the patio door would be open he could go in and out as he pleased. This started leading to more and more barking. He would settle to sleep, hear a noise and be up to investigate. If it was the neighbour outside he would get barked at for talking or just being in sight, the postman would cause him to lunge and bark at the internal glass door where he could see to the external door, even the reversing beep as the postman was leaving next door caused him to anticipate the postman coming, any body outside he would run into the kitchen and bark at the noise.

Management measures were put in place.
I started crate training him in a crate in the office, he also had separation issues so this was hard for him so he wasn't in there for long at the start. So while we built up time other measures were needed.
If he went outside and barked at anything he would be called in and the privilege taken away by closing the door. If he still insisted on going back to the door or window I would put him on a long lead and he would come with me until he calmed down.
The glass door had a curtain permanently pulled over it so he couldn't keep going to look outside and bark at any movement.
If anyone came to the door (our employees are always coming to the door) he would be put on a lead so he couldn't pace and keep winding himself up while one of us spoke to whoever was there.
I worked a lot on the Distraction, Mark, Treat technique.This is something you should put a lot of effort into. I use the word "calm" as my marker word as its a quiet and non excitingly like"yes" which is what I use as a marker for normal training. I've also taught a calming touch as the treat instead of food treat as Jasper quite often finds that more sweatshirts food.I

Basically anything that triggered barking or over arousal I looked for a way to prevent it happening and still do.
He now spends 2-4 hours in his crate on a morning mon-fri. He's either in the office or I have a soft crate that I move around so he goes in different places. He can now rest properly and will occasionally gruff at noise outside if he's in his soft crate away from me, no responses at all if he's in the office. He's now allowed more freedom in the afternoon and can go where he likes but generally chooses to lay in his crate or on his boundary in the office. Patio door is open all the time and the only time he barks now is if hes heard someone going in the garage (employees again). He totally ignores the neighbour even if he can see him which was the biggest trigger. He still gets put on a lead in the house as this has now become a calming signal to him.

It's not a quick process and takes lots is patience and many deep breaths . Reassure your husband it is nothing you have done. You are the best owners for Moussie you're showing that by the care and effort you're putting in. Some dogs just seem to have more anxiety issues than other just like people, we just happen to own 2 of them

[Moussie]

Hi Mary, I am so sorry to hear that things are not improving for you - or even getting worse. I do wonder whether Moussie (and you) are becoming over-loaded with this effort to train her out of barking and if you both need a break to re-establish your relationship as it was previously.

Bearing in mind that miniature schnauzers are vocal dogs - they do bark especially when they are excited; as a warning and for a variety of other reasons too! Added to this Moussie is going through her adolescence when all kinds of hormonal changes often lead to puppies failing to respond well to training, more likely to react to triggers by barking and, even in calm and well trained dogs can mean a temporary change to unwanted behaviours.

Moussie has been through a great deal of challenging experiences with the various training methods being used with her, some of which have clearly distressed her due to the trainer using ‘punishment’ rather than positive reinforcement. Your earlier posts described her as a loving, friendly little dog who enjoyed meeting people and had a loving relationship with you. These are the positives you need to concentrate on for now and try to reinforce/ rebuild these good traits. Don’t force her into situations she is uncomfortable with and try for a while to avoid those which are challenging for her. Do you have any enclosed dog fields /play areas which you could hire for her to have some unrestricted play with no other dogs around? Are there any friends or relatives with a friendly dog that Moussie could form a bond with to play at your home or theirs? Do you have outside space where she can play rather than taking her out in busy places for a while? There are many different enrichment type games you can play with a puppy without needing to take them out and about, such as scent games - hiding tasty treats around your home and garden for her to seek out or Nina Ottosson type challenge toys:
https://www.nina-ottosson.com/

A search online may give you more ideas too.

Training a puppy does take time and can be frustrating and emotionally draining on you and also on them and this is not to suggest that you give up on trying to calm Moussie when out and about but sometimes we all just need some time and space to settle our minds and forget the strain of trying to solve challenging situations. Spend some time at home enjoying yourself with Moussie, concentrate on things you both love and let her have some calm time when she is just being a puppy and not under pressure to try and seek your approval through specific training exercises.

P.S Just to add to this, I noticed you mentioned about a trainer being experienced with training police dogs /German Shepherd dogs. If trainers are from a background of working with dogs that have been bred over centuries to co-operate with humans by herding, guarding or hunting, they will be a totally different type of dog to those who have been bred as watchdogs and ratters. The latter are bred to be independent minded, act on their own initiative, and do not look to humans to direct their behaviour. The training methods must not only be reward based but also engaging for these type of dogs and unless you have their attention and trust the training is bound to fail. Miniature schnauzers as watchdogs and ratters by breeding fall into this category and training designed for working /herding dogs is not going to work well with them.

So thankful for your answer. It made me feel a bit better for a few seconds...

I've thought everything you mentioned. Im trying to manage her environment and everything I can.

First of all I live in an apartment meaning no garden, no limited space for her to play freely.

Our neighborhood is not that crowded ( thank God) but there are dogs -on leash, off leash, strays- and of course cats! The problem is I cannot keep her home, because she needs to have her potty breaks except if I try using puppy pads again at the balcony. Which she hates because she barks at everything passes by, human or not.

She looks like she can't handle anything lately. She barks excessively to dogs, cats, birds, people than scare her, people that in front of our building when we are coming out, people that are in front of our building when we are returning from walks, people that talk outside our house, closing Windows, closing doors, birds singing...

Well I haven't noticed how big was our list until I wrote it!!!

So, management is quite a challenge. Another idea is to take her by car to more quite places, no triggers. Im gonna be honest with you though. Its not easy for me to do this every day, 3 times/day and there are not so many of these places where I live.

My thoughts are to start working with her in the house. Reinforce her calmness. With mental games like these you mentioned, enrichments and a few games by absolute dogs.

Imagine that lately is so stressed that she rejects her chews! I couldn't believe it. She used to love her deer horn or her Yak.

There are so many days that it is so frustrating. Especially the effort to predict and prevent something before she reacts (

I don't know if crate her a few hours during the day would help. Her crate is her calming place.

* Loved your ps! I'd keep it in mind

[Dawnspell]

So, management is quite a challenge. Another idea is to take her by car to more quite places, no triggers. Im gonna be honest with you though. Its not easy for me to do this every day, 3 times/day and there are not so many of these places where I live.

My thoughts are to start working with her in the house. Reinforce her calmness. With mental games like these you mentioned, enrichments and a few games by absolute dogs.

Imagine that lately is so stressed that she rejects her chews! I couldn't believe it. She used to love her deer horn or her Yak.

There are so many days that it is so frustrating. Especially the effort to predict and prevent something before she reacts (

I don't know if crate her a few hours during the day would help. Her crate is her calming place.

* Loved your ps! I'd keep it in mind

I know youre in an apt but Jasper gets one walk in the morning so he can do poos. At the moment its different with it being summer as the doors are open but in winter he gets taken in the garden for 5 - 10 mins once maybe twice during the day then out for night time wee before bed. Only one walk, Id try the same. He gets plenty of mental enrichment finding food in cardboard boxes, short training sessions, cuddles and really doesnt need 3 walks a day. Yes most definitely start working with her in the house, thats how we started.

Crating will definitely help especially if she sees it as her safe place. Lets face it they sleep a lot its better shes in there feeling safe than loose hearing alsorts and reacting more, I know thats what Jasper was like. Jasper really doesnt like baths. Ive been doing it on the patio using a portable shower and an orange trug bucket. He saw me get the trug the other day to fill it with water and he went and laid in is crate I took that as a clear "I dont want a bath Mum" and reinforced his decision as it being a safe place and just left him there, no bath. Nothing bad ever happens to do with his crate or his boundary beds, its his place to go to say "No" or "I'm feeling uncomfortable about whats happening"

[Schnauzerluv]

I don't know if this can help with Moussie, but i'll explain what we did for our pup Ozzy. I used to spend a lot of time in the window with him looking out to the street just watching. Maybe you could do this on the balcony? Ok so when someone was walking by, I explained it ("someone is walking") and gave him praise and treats for remaining calm. Same when it was a dog walking by, but obviously it was bit harder to keep him calm at 1st. As time went by, he associated things he saw with good things. I did this with everything, sights, sounds, (a squirrel, a birdie, a plane, thunder, fireworks, you name it, we named it. Ozzy is now 2YO and I still mention the odd sound like thunder and fireworks and make it sound positive and happy. Lately he has needed a refresher since he started barking at the window, so i've been working on it again with him and it didn't take long for him to stop barking and just watch. I always told him he was good for just watching when he is praised.

I did this in our yard, I know you don't have one, but maybe you could work on that when you are out on a walk? Even if you don't get very far, it might help to look at walks as a training experience instead of an exercise walk.

I would really work on mental stimulation games inside like 'find the treats' (hide treats in spots around the apartment and have her sniff them out, get a box with shredded paper and hide treats in there), maybe learning the names of some of her toys and bringing them to you/putting them away to build her confidence and strengthen your bond.

[Moussie]

So, management is quite a challenge. Another idea is to take her by car to more quite places, no triggers. Im gonna be honest with you though. Its not easy for me to do this every day, 3 times/day and there are not so many of these places where I live.

My thoughts are to start working with her in the house. Reinforce her calmness. With mental games like these you mentioned, enrichments and a few games by absolute dogs.

Imagine that lately is so stressed that she rejects her chews! I couldn't believe it. She used to love her deer horn or her Yak.

There are so many days that it is so frustrating. Especially the effort to predict and prevent something before she reacts (

I don't know if crate her a few hours during the day would help. Her crate is her calming place.

* Loved your ps! I'd keep it in mind

I know youre in an apt but Jasper gets one walk in the morning so he can do poos. At the moment its different with it being summer as the doors are open but in winter he gets taken in the garden for 5 - 10 mins once maybe twice during the day then out for night time wee before bed. Only one walk, Id try the same. He gets plenty of mental enrichment finding food in cardboard boxes, short training sessions, cuddles and really doesnt need 3 walks a day. Yes most definitely start working with her in the house, thats how we started.

Crating will definitely help especially if she sees it as her safe place. Lets face it they sleep a lot its better shes in there feeling safe than loose hearing alsorts and reacting more, I know thats what Jasper was like. Jasper really doesnt like baths. Ive been doing it on the patio using a portable shower and an orange trug bucket. He saw me get the trug the other day to fill it with water and he went and laid in is crate I took that as a clear "I dont want a bath Mum" and reinforced his decision as it being a safe place and just left him there, no bath. Nothing bad ever happens to do with his crate or his boundary beds, its his place to go to say "No" or "I'm feeling uncomfortable about whats happening"

If we had a garden, one walk per day would be great but she needs her 3 get outs. I've started trying enrichments lately (stuffed kongs, sniffing work, chews). The problems are two. Firstly Moussie has a very sensitive stomach so I need to be extra carefull with her diet and anything I feed her and secondly I noticed that although she used to looove chews, lately she seens uninterested! Today I leave her (once upon a time) favorite yak on her bed and she didn't even touch it! I'm thinking maybe it's something to do with her first heat and all the behavioral changes she's going through right now, but who knows?

[Moussie]

Hey everyone!

It's been a while since I last posted.
A quick recap of what's happening with Moussie.

August was the month that Moussie had the first heat. Well, many things got even worse. She was on edge, barking to... nothing both when in the house and out on walks.

I signed up in Absolute dogs and started working with her in different areas: optimism, arousal, dimmer switch, distraction, sound sensitivity, calmness, confidence.

I must say that I start noticing a few differences as time passes. She is getting calmer in the house and although she is still sensitive to sounds she does not react immediately with excessive barking. She maybe growls or woofs and looks at me.

I stopped yelling her to stop barking. Instead, I started reassuring her, talking calmly and explaining that everything is ok and she does not need to worry.

This made a huge difference!
Her reactivity is worse in walking but with our new R+ trainer I hope to have a little progress.

Hope and patience is all that's left

[Schnauzerluv]

Hey that's a great improvement!!! Baby steps and take notice of her advancements! She's looking at you after alerting calmy, that's great for your relationship. Glad the games and R+ training is helping