Random aggression

[HollieR]

Hi all,
Looking for some urgent advice if possible…
Facts:
We have 2 x male GS
Kane - 3 in Nov, neutered, had him since he was a puppy, 47kgs.
Rufus - 3 in Feb, neutered, rehomed him a year ago from a family who had a new baby (he was not bad used or abandoned etc), 53kgs.
Been best friends since we introduced them, we met Rufus at an enclosed field for a few hours one week, he came for a sleep over weekend a few weeks later, and they got on so well we decided to rehome him.
They are the absolute best of friends, you don’t get one without the other!
We have a converted internal garage so they have their own room with separate beds and plenty of space to themselves, we have 0.75 acre of a garden so they’ve plenty of room to run about (and rough play as GSs do)!
They go to doggy daycare twice a week, but even then they always prioritise each other when they’re playing.
We’ve never had any issues with them separately nor together, until now.
We went on holiday, put them into kennels for a week and it’s like we have a different dog back (Kane).
First day back Kane proper went for Rufus once we got home, snarling, barking and snapping at him, and although Rufus never retaliated, we separated them for a while, they were actually crying within minutes to get back to each other, and once reunited it was like nothing had ever happened.
We put it down to tiredness, probably sick of being so close to one another etc.
Called the kennel and they said there had been no issue, they were a joy to have and nothing untoward had happened.
This has now happened a few times, Kane always instigating it, we separate them for a while and there’s nothing more to it.
Until last night, Rufus had enough and fought back and we had to bodily separate them.
We took Kane to the vet today for a check up as it’s so out of character for him to be aggressive, the vet gave us a weeks worth of Metacalm and said if it helps they will run some tests on him as he’s obviously in pain.
Gave him some with his dinner thinking we might have a solution and about an hour ago all hell broke loose.
Poor Rufus was lying minding his own business and Kane just went for him, massive bust up which had resulted in both myself and my husband being bitten, I don’t even know by which dog…
WTF do we do?
There seems to be no trigger which is making it harder to understand…
We got them separated and within minutes they were crying to be together again.
We’ve been feeding them separate, no toys in the house, but there’s no rhyme nor reason for it kicking off, and it only seems to be getting worse.
Any words of wisdom greatly appreciated, I’m absolutely heartbroken my boys are fighting like this.

[zeta1454]

Hi Hollie - so sorry to read about the issues that have suddenly arisen with your boys and I can understand how upsetting and frightening it is to see them like this.

I have no experience with Giant schnauzers but from what you have said this doesn’t sound a breed specific problem. We have two entire male dogs (affenpinschers) who will periodically have a spat usually because one of our girls is in season. They do sound as though they are killing each other but it does seem to be all noise and baring of teeth and neither have ever hurt each other although I have been bitten when I tried to separate them. Although I completely understand the instinct to intervene when two of your dogs are fighting, you do need to be very careful especially with such large dogs as you could unintentionally suffer a serious injury.

I know that your boys are neutered and clearly it is not a case of hormonal reactions with them, so there are a couple of possible causes. One being that, as suggested by your vet, Kane is in pain. However, I do find it frustrating when vets prescribe serious medication before having established a reason for a behaviour / health issue. Metacam is a medication to treat arthritis although it is often used by vets as general pain killer but it also carries very real risks of liver damage among other unwanted side effects and, as a result, should really not be prescribed when there is not yet a diagnosis of a health problem. I would be wanting tests carried out - blood tests and physical examination to see if there is anything abnormal which may be causing pain or even just affecting his behaviour. Liver diseases and neurological issues can both affect behaviour and may cause random untypical behaviour in dogs.

It is complicated somewhat by the fact that this has occurred just after Kane and Rufus were in kennels as, despite the reassurances from the staff, there will be the possibility that something has happened while they were there which has either triggered this behaviour or led to it happening now they are home.

We did have a miniature schnauzer girl who suffered brain damage from her second puppy vaccination and this caused excessive fear, paranoia and, as a result periodic and apparently random aggression. The situation escalated over a period of a year and, despite all our efforts re training and treatment, she was unable to be saved. I am not suggesting this is the case with your Kane but just to illustrate that neurological conditions can occur and change the normal behaviour dramatically due to illness or to exposure to toxins.

I would definitely request a full blood screen for Kane at the vet and, possibly either or also, see if you have a vet surgery with a homeopathic vet you could contact for advice as, often with the ‘hard to understand’ issues a homeopathic vet will take an extensive examination of the dog spending one to two hours looking at all aspects of their behaviour / lifestyle / environment etc. before a diagnosis and offering a remedy which may resolve the issue. We have had good experiences in the past with homeopathy for our dogs.

There are a couple of links here to vet surgeries that include homeopathic veterinary consultation alongside conventional treatments but you may be able to find more nearer to your home:~~

https://dunedinvets.co.uk/what-we-offer/homeopathy

https://www.glenbrae-vet.co.uk/services/holistic-care

[Jacksons_Pet]

I don't pop in here very often now, but happened to nip in today and saw your post. In addition to the advice from Zeta I would suggest the following:

Both dogs have a basic health work up with bloods. Kane is reacting to something and it may be that there's something health wise affecting Rufus that is triggering Kane's reaction.

Do not allow them extended access to each other. The more these instances repeat, the harder it is to undo any damage and the greater the risk of injury. The whining may be because of the separation, it may also be frustration at not having a definitive winner from these bouts of fighting.

Male giants, in my experience, do not tend to have extended scraps where no one is hurt. Once or twice, possibly. More than that and the likelihood of a vets/a&e visit rapidly increases. They are rather inclined to hold a grudge. For the moment I would take the inconvenience of micromanaging them over the risk that you go past the point where they can live together happily in future.

Were there any changes at home that coincided with their return from kennels? It certainly sounds as though there is something causing Kane to redirect aggression to Rufus as there are no obvious resource struggles.

In addition to the health work up I would ask for a referral to a veterinary behaviourist. As much as possible, note daily routines for both dogs and log any instance where there is hard body language between them-- whites of eye, stiff backs, slow wags etc - without letting it escalate to something they need to sort out.

There is likely to be a trigger of some sort, either pain or something so tiny that unless you're actively analysing their interactions you'll miss it.

I sincerely hope that you manage to resolve this quickly and that both your hands heal up quickly. It's a horrible thing to deal with, and I hope you can get some reliable professional help to enable your boys to live comfortably with each other again.