Dominance / aggression towards puppies

[Flynny]

We've just come back from one of the worst walks I have ever taken Flynn on. He's always been brilliant in the house, but on a walk he is, to put it bluntly, a nightmare around other dogs in that he gets so hyper and excited he jumps all over them and their poor unsuspecting owners.

Taking some great advice on this forum we now get him to sit and pop him on his lead before talking to the owners and asking them to ignore him if he jumps up (this is going to take some time but we are persevering), however today we met a gorgeous 4 month old lab and Flynn immediately snarled at it, baring his teeth and yapping/barking right in its face - i.e. I'm the boss (I think!). He's only just started doing this in the last month or so, before then he would play and play with any pup he met.

Has anyone else experienced this? I've had a look through past posts but couldn't see anything specific.

ANy tips on how to handle this? I am going to ensure he is on his lead for the jumping up bit but sometimes that winds him up even more and he jumps and lunges, he just becomes deaf to us even if we are asking him to do something he knows like sit or down.

(confused)

[Tulip]

My dog Freddy did something similar with puppies, and is still not great with very young ones; I put it down to how rude puppies can be, they're naturally pretty obnoxious, and as such, his first reaction is to over-do it and pin them down, before he has a shake and then settles. It lasts a moment but is terrifying.

I would quite simply walk him away when he displays that; just walk away and take him with you. Then you can reintroduce on a slack lead, if he does it again; walk. He'll soon learn, it is difficult to have a reactive dog and most of my training is mostly risk management; Freddy can't go off lead in case he meets a puppy, and it makes big days out for him a little more difficult, but it can be done.

[nessclair]

Our trainer advised working on getting Monty's attention in increasingly distracting situations, the most being when he is fixated on and barking at other dogs. We practise doing a sit at kerbs and other random spots with a treat as required (although he's not too fussed by the treats anyway). He is supposed to look at me too, but I haven't acheived this yet outside of the house and garden. I'm not too worried as he will sit. I tried several different noises to try to get his attention in the park, and the best one I have come up with is Dexter the squeaky elephant who now comes on all our walks. When Monty is barking, I pull him away from the other dog, squeaking Dexter in his ear and saying 'Here' firmly. Although we've only been using Dexter since Tuesday (ie 6 days ago), I can already see a difference in how quickly he stops barking at the other dog and comes away with me. He is also sometimes quietening down more quickly and wandering round if we do stop to chat with another dog's owner. I'm hoping that with a bit more training, it will knock his barking on the head!

[Mari Obi and Fingal]

Some great advise already given.
I think the key is to keep him pre-occupied with something different to start with if he is very focused on the other dog. Distract him with a toy or food (which ever is higher value), and keep his attention until you have passed the other dog. Either keep feeding him a continous flow of high value food bits from the first sight of the other dog, and carry on until you passed them. This will create a positive emotional association to the other dogs, and will keep him distracted hence creating an alternative behavioural pattern (ie you will give him something else to think about than the other dog).

Also, you can teach him to look at you as he is learning to ignore the other dogs with the lure (food) and distraction (toy or food).
Keep treat in your hand, let him know it is there, but do not let him have it. As soon as he looks at you, click or say a release word such as "ok", and give him the treat. After a few repetitions, he will look at you as he knows that you have a treat in your hand, and he would have realised that by looking at you he'll get the treat. Now you can add a work such as "look" as he looks at you, maintain the position for a split second, and then release him with "ok" and give a treat. Repeat many many times, and then try to say "look" and it he looks at you, immediate release and treat. You can practice that at home to start with, and proof the behaviour 100%, and then add distructions little by little (ie going to garden, street, park etc etc) and maintain a ood "look", and also remember to work on the duration. First teach the word "look" like described, then increase the duration in low stimulus environment, and then increase distruction and reduce time of expected "look".

Expect this to take some time, but I think it is really important to offer the dog an alternative behaviour to replace the unwanted one.
Obviously, this idea will aim to keep him away from other dogs hence avoiding the problem.

Good luck!

[Little Bear]

Little Bear has the exact same problem. He's even bullied a timid Malimute and a Great Dane!

I can't add much to the great advice already given over and above work your socks off now to nip it in the bud - it'll make life easier if he doesn't get an opportunity to practice the behaviour.

Secondly, just to pass on the best bit of advice I was given by a behaviourist: check how you're rewarding him and double check what he thinks he's being rewarded for.

To explain, I was advised to distract him when he kicked off, but the first behaviourist we saw neglected to explain to me that I needed to be rewarding non-reaction. Once he'd kicked off, getting a toy out to play with, although my idea of a 'distraction' could to him = a reward. So in his mind he was thinking "hey great, I kick off, I get to play with my mum!" So inadvertently I was rewarding him for kicking off. Same goes for food or attention even - we need to think of what the dog finds rewarding.

We use a clicker now and he gets a click for not reacting. Once he's kicked off I walk away and say 'time out' then ask for a heel but otherwise ignore him completely.

Feisty Fido by Jean Donaldson is worth a read and Grishsa Stewart's BAT technique is worth a look.

Chin up though, you're not alone and it can be managed.

[Flynny]

Thanks everyone, I have to run as going away with work so no time to write much but wanted to say thanks and i'll pop back in later this week

[Flynny]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I have been away with work.

Thanks for taking the time to reply everyone.

The problem we both find with Flynn is that nothing we ever do is of higher value than another dog to play with - we have tried everything to distract him - food, toys etc. Perhaps we could make the toys higher value by hiding them all and just letting him have them at our discretion (NILIFF method?). But we'll definitely try the techniques here (and stick with them, I realise anything we do will take weeks/months to take effect) and see how we go.

Tulip, re the puppies, I'll try your techniques. I really don't want to have to keep him on lead, but as a precaution now will ensure he's on lead for all dogs as we meet them - 1) to try and help the jumping up and 2) in case they are puppies.

Will also google Fiesty Fido.

Thanks again everyone.

[Derwent]

[quote="Flynny"]
The problem we both find with Flynn is that nothing we ever do is of higher value than another dog to play with - we have tried everything to distract him - food, toys etc. Perhaps we could make the toys higher value by hiding them all and just letting him have them at our discretion (NILIFF method?). But we'll definitely try the techniques here (and stick with them, I realise anything we do will take weeks/months to take effect) and see how we go.quote]

This sounds very like Max these days, since getting Monty (whose recall is good) Max has gone from good occasionally to just looking over this shoulder at me then continuining on his way to the other dog. I have brought the whistle that you have and this works like an 'electric shock' with Monty but not Max (if you are coming on Sunday to Norbury Park you will see what I mean). I have booked a place on the Giant Schnauzer Training Day in October to see if that will give me some different advice/help/methods of recall. I know how frustrating it is having to keep your dog on a lead. Max ran up to another dog who was on a lead last week and I just couldn't get to him quick enough and the lady was not impressed (I don't blame her) but I was so cross that I yelled at him then felt very guilty and then kept him on the lead for the rest of Toys Hill which is one of his favourite walks.

Good Luck but don't give up.

[Tulip]

Have you tried what I've done with Maisy and Freds? Put them on a harness and put the long line to them so Freddy taught Mais good recall...just a thought though, that's not a proven training method as far as I know, LOL! I just know it worked really well for us, but probably wouldn't if Max is more strapping than Monty and can drag him off!

[henrys mum]

Also do things that they don't expect to make them keep watching you. For instance don't always walk the same way round the park, change where you take them off the lead and put it back on, try taking the lead off and on again at several points on a walk. Remember that if a dog is always walked in the same place it regards that place as it's territory and so will check out intruders! When Henry was a pup we even lay on the floor when he looked away so he couldn't see us ......such a fast return! Keep them occupied mentally wondering what you're going to do next! including hiding behind trees

[Caramomo]

Yeah, I often hide out on a walk - any large tree or bush will do. And if there is a choice of directions I don't make it obvious where I'm going - I used to shout out 'come on then' to get their attention and encourage them to follow but know I just pick a direction and walk - they always follow after a little while and from then on they keep a better eye on me!

[Little Bear]

What's NILFF? Is it the work for everything thing? I tried with LB but it just made him depressed and more stressed generally plus I couldn't keep it up as it felt unnatural to change the rules on him, but horses for courses and all that.

Re, recall I've found that saying 'Bye!' and then running away is the best way of getting him back when he doesn't want to come. We practiced a lot to begin without other dogs around and now he pegs it back whenever he hears it. He's not perfect mind you but much better than he was.

Have you tried walking him when he's super hungry so that he's keener on the food rewards?

Our new trainer (fourth time lucky I hope but so far so good!) suggested using spontaneous play on walks so that the dog is never quite sure what fun thing you're going to do next and wants to stick around. LB's favourite tug toy now lives in my walking bag so that we can have a game randomly on walks. Seems to work well so far. She said it was helpful for nervous dogs as it helps change their state of mind hence when they play they're less worried and less likely, I suppose to aggress.

Dogs eh? Whatever would we do with our time if they were perfectly behaved?! (giggle)

[Tulip]

I use NILIF, but, I've used it straight from the very beginning, so my two are used to it. I can imagine it would be confusing for an adult dog, though I've seen personally teenage dogs that are getting too big for their boots do well on it.

[Mari Obi and Fingal]

...Secondly, just to pass on the best bit of advice I was given by a behaviourist: check how you're rewarding him and double check what he thinks he's being rewarded for.

To explain, I was advised to distract him when he kicked off, but the first behaviourist we saw neglected to explain to me that I needed to be rewarding non-reaction. Once he'd kicked off, getting a toy out to play with, although my idea of a 'distraction' could to him = a reward. So in his mind he was thinking "hey great, I kick off, I get to play with my mum!" So inadvertently I was rewarding him for kicking off. Same goes for food or attention even - we need to think of what the dog finds rewarding. ...

Great point, LB. Timing is everything.

Flynny, if you are struggling with finding anything of higher value than other dogs, I suggest indeed to keep the toys off the floor, and to introduce a clear playing routine with him to:
a) increase the value of the toy (choose one toy he likes and is easy to carry with you during the walks) and
b) to invrease your value in his eyes (as you hold the toy, and you allow him to play with you and the toy)
When he is energetic at home, whip the toy out from your pocket and engage him in a energetic play for a few seconds, tug and play, let him win the toy, and get him to bring the toy back to you for a further tug (use a long line to reel him back if necessary, don't ever let him run away with the toy and play on his own. Idea is that he plays with you!), as he drops the toy, whip it up, and tease him and then put the toy away. Repeat a couple of times a day, and he soon gets the idea that you have something really fun, toy becomes fun, and the toy soon becomes high value to him. You should also introduce a word (such as "ready!" to give a clue to him that a play is about to start. Make it exciting and fun!

Does he know "leave" (the toy)? Will be helpful if he does. If he doesn't, teach it separately when he is not in excited mood.

Then, you can start playing in the garden, and if he is really focussed in you and the toy in garden for a few minutes, then move to park and play with him under low stimulus environment. When he plays well in different environments, then you may start using the toy as a distraction when you see a dog in a distance.
As soon as he sees the dog (ensure you have enough distance that the other dog is low value), call him with a high pitch voice, and AS SOON AS HE LOOKS AT YOU, say your "reday", and whip the toy out, and play with him whilst working your way away from the dog. Idea is that he is fully focused on you and the toy, and the game, and he forgets about the other dog. If he glances back to the dog, just call him, or pop the lead gently, and as he looks at you, engage in game again. Maintain his interest, and walk away. Little by little work towards the other dogs, and higher stimulus environments. Eventually, if you play your cards right, he he will look at you in expecting manner as soon as he sees a dog, and you will engage him in a game as you pass the other dog in close distance. Even later, he will be able to walk past a dog ignoring it, and will look at you, expecting you to engage in games with him. The other dog has become lower value than you and the toy.

I know, sounds very simple in theory, but will be hard work and tricky in practice. You need to practice your playing skills, timing, ability to ready your dog, scan the environemnt and his reaction to it etc etc, but, in the end, it will be worth it.

You will risk loosing the value of your toy if you start using the toy as a distraction too early (when he is not yet "mad about it"), or if you use it when the other dogs is close, and dog becomes exciting and higher value than your toy.

Also, if you can not engage him to play with you, choose any treat (I mean any- roast chichen, beef, cheese, hot dogs, anything ..nothing too salty, mind you) he will go mad for, and use it as a reward like a toy. Remeber, you can increase the value of the food as well by making it "prey-like", just like the toy. Start at him, and work towards getting the excited reaction for the food outside, in parks etc, and only then start working with other dogs in distance.

Good luck!

[Caramomo]

Great advice Mari (bigthumbs)